“Can I lose my salvation,” is one of the most googled phrases regarding the topic of soteriology. Many people are concerned with this tragic potential. In order to answer this question some refer to the doctrine called the “Perseverance of the Saints,” and others the more common teachings such as, “Once Saved Always Saved,” or “Eternal Security of the Believer.” All of the discussions typically center around the foundational concern of an individual feeling insecure in his relationship with God.
Many of us have gone through similar insecurities in dating relationships. We know how we feel about that significant other, but we are not quite sure how they feel about us. What has to happen? The “DTR!” The “Defining of the Relationship.”
NOTE: I preached a Sermon by that Title HERE if you are interested.
We have to sit down with the one we care about and tell them how we feel in hopes that they reciprocate those feelings. In that process we can either bring that relationship to an end or find security in knowing how the other feels about us.
It is similar in our relationship with God. As long as we are unaware of how God really feels about us individually, we will continue to have these insecurities. The good news is that God’s word does provide us a “DTR.” The bible clearly “defines the relationship” between God and man, which is where we develop our systematic teachings on each particular subject.
This brings us to the “P” in the popular Calvinistic soteriological acronym called TULIP. Chapter 17 of the Westminster Confession of faith defines it in this manner:
Perseverance of the saints is the Calvinist doctrine that those who are truly saved will persevere to the end and cannot lose their salvation. It doesn’t mean that a person who is truly saved will never lose faith or backslide at any time. But that they will ultimately persevere in faith (inspite of failures) such as not to lose their salvation. The doctrine of perseverance is rooted in God’s unconditional election and predestination. That is, since God is the One who chose and predestined the elect to salvation, therefore the elect will be saved. They might turn away from faith and give appearance of losing their salvation, but if they really are elect they will repent and ultimately return to faith, because God is the One ensuring their salvation.(1)
Those of us who hold to “The Corporate View of Election” (the most widely held view of Southern Baptist biblical scholars), likewise affirm the Calvinistic doctrine that “those who are truly saved will persevere to the end and cannot lose their salvation.” Some Calvinists feel it is inconsistent for those of us who deny any part of the TULIP doctrines to try and maintain the doctrine of perseverance. This accusation, however, is misapplied because it fails to recognize that we affirm the effectual work of regeneration, just like our Calvinistic brethren. We disagree as to the “ordo salutis” (order of salvation) in that we do not affirm the concept of pre-faith regeneration (irresistible grace). Instead we believe as John clearly stated, “These are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in His name.” -John 20:31
In today’s podcast I go over these points in great detail, outlining Ephesians chapter 1 and Paul’s teaching regarding Predestination, the TRUE “P” of the biblical doctrine regarding the perseverance of those who are “IH HIM.”
John Piper writes this about the doctrine:
“The true Christian is safe, but his safety is confirmed in his pressing on to make his final inheritance his own. Our safety is seen in the words “because Christ Jesus has made me his own.” In other words, our security is not based finally on our grip on Christ, but his grip on us. ” -John Piper
I could not agree more with this statement, though we might disagree as to means and methods that God uses to “make us” His own. The real question of this debate is not, “Can you lose your salvation,” but instead, “If you lost it, did you ever have it to begin with?” 1 John 2:19 answers that question quite clearly:
I recently had a woman in a church tell me she “fell out of love with her husband and got a divorce.” With great care I had to explain to her that she cannot refer to that as “love,” because according to God’s definition “love does not fail.” True genuine love is a never ending commitment. So, she may have cared for her husband, liked him a lot, or been infatuated with him for a time, but she cannot rightly call what she had “love.” We cannot change the definition of the word to match our behaviors.
The same is true of salvation. If it lasts, then it’s real. If it does not then it is proven itself to have been false. So, from the human perspective, unlike God who can see the heart, it may appear one has lost something that he once attained. This may be why some passages appear to suggest that we may lose our salvation. However, from the divine perspective one choosing to walk away from the faith is merely revealing externally what has been true internally all along. The ultimate external fruit of true salvation is perseverance to the very end.
Now, does that mean God’s warnings about falling away are benign? Is God just bluffing as a means to ensure we do not fall away even though He knows full well we cannot? I do not believe so. We should never dull the edge of God’s warnings with our systematics. The warning is a real one and it is given for those who may be self-deceived into thinking they have something they truly do not. 
This is why Paul exhorts his listeners to, “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith.” (2 Cor. 13:5) Paul is not concerned for those who truly are in the faith, but for those who falsely believe they are in the faith. The only way the self-deceived may come to realize their error is by examining themselves to see if Christ is truly in them. I love what Francis Chan wrote in his book titled Crazy Love in reference to the parable of the sower:
“Do not assume you are good soil.”
In today podcast I reflect on my own faith journey (and get a bit emotional, which I shouldn’t be embarrassed about, but as a prideful man I still am). I discuss how reaching one’s pig sty in life and experiencing God’s unconditional love will change you. I honestly believe that anyone who experiences that level of love and forgiveness will never walk away from it.
The torn-veil is Christianity. It is salvation, it is the FABRIC of eternal life. Brace yourself for the most important question you’ll ever be asked, in all your life, in all the Universe—once you enter within the veil to delight in the presence of God (as He delights in yours—He really does, you know)—is there ever a reason to LEAVE?
Washed clean by Jesus’s blood, walk joyfully through the veil and exult in He who loved you and made you. And NEVER LEAVE. We are supposed to be UNITED with Jesus—Romans6:5, united, joined, grown-together.
And that’s the tragedy of all OSAS views. Flowers said, “Backslidden-but-saved”—what does that mean? Backslidden from where, into where? The woman at my door inviting me to her Baptist church said, “You can be fallen away from Jesus but still saved!” THAT is what “backslidden” is. If I am anywhere away from Jesus, the only other location is IN SIN. I cannot avoid sin without Him (Jn15:5), I have no strength (Rm8:3). There is no in-between, no neutral zone straddle-the-fence. Jesus said, “He who is not with Me is against Me.” (Matt12:30)
OSAS only works with a salvation-view strikingly similar to going to a store, picking up a resin-statue of Jesus, bringing Him home and putting Him up on a shelf. We nod to Him frequently as we pass by, and we continue walking carnally (oh it’s just a LITTLE sin, God keeps me!). Jesus is our “elf on the shelf”; and we miss the depth of what salvation really is:
“I am crucified with Christ, no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.” (Gal2:20) Nice hopeful someday-ideal (maybe eventually we’ll be mature enough)? Or is it central and critical? Many hug themselves with “babes-but-saved”, fully missing the import of Heb5;11-14 which flows into 6:1-6. Paul promises “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion”. If we remain babes-forever, do we have the UNION with God that is salvation? No. “Immature/babes/milk-eaters” (Heb5:11-14), are those who who are condemned for unrepentance in the next verses 6:1-6.
A superficial “elf-on-the-shelf” savior is a caricature of what Jesus really did; it is to embody 1Tim3:1-4 and 4:3-4, Having a form of godliness but denying its power, surrounding oneself with like minded teachers to tickle itching ears while we turn away from the truth. It is to read 1Jn3:5-10 and deny the severity, “Oh we can walk in sin, not-be-of-God, but we’ll still make it to Heaven”. It is to deny Jesus’s words in Matt7:21-23, we will rush to greet Jesus when He returns only for Him to refuse us “because we practice wickedness”. We will realize the truth—but for some of us, it will be too late.
Scripture warns me not to become deceived by worldly philosophies and doctrines of men rather than according to Christ, not to become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God; because the only place I can fall to, is sin. There is no “in-sin-saved”. Those warnings are real (Col2:6-8, Heb3:12-14).
Do true Christians sin? Yes. Does committing a sin cause us to lose salvation? Yes—if NOT-sinning causes us to be saved. No, salvation is not “avoiding sins”, and sins do not condemn us. The problem is what happens AFTER we sin. God gives us an escape, but if we are deceived to choosing the sin (1Cor10:12-13, let he who thinks he stand take heed lest he falls; God provides the escape), the same choice confronts us as did a moment ago—the next sin beckons to us, we can either sin again or we can experience sorrow (2Cor7) because we hurt the One we love, hurl ourselves back behind the veil, throw ourselves at His feet begging forgiveness for what we have done, and the strength not to do it again. It is not the SIN that harms us, but the “again”. (Heb10:26-29—if we continue sinning willfully, Jesus’s sacrifice no longer covers us!)
No, we cannot be “backslidden-saved”—because the most foundational reality of salvation is being indwelt by all three persons of God. If we sin, then the Father Son and Spirit indwell us, participating in our sin. Will God? NO. All sin is apart from God; the only way 1Jn3:5-10 (no one who abide in Him sins, he cannot sin because he is born of God)—fits with 1Jn1:8 (if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves)—is if abiding/born-of-God, is fallible. Thus over and over we are warned against deceivers who can lead us away from Jesus and salvation. No one can FORCE us away (Jn10:26 & 28), but we can be deceived and walk away. Can anyone deny 2Cor11:3, we are at the same risk of deception away from Jesus as Eve experienced?
OSAS #1 (antinomianism, walking-in-sin-SAVED), OSAS#2 (eternal security but leaving is impossible), and OSAS #3 (sovereign determinism, God decides everything and the elect cannot thwart God’s sovereign will)—all completely miss what salvation is.
“This hope we have as a sure and steadfast anchor of our souls, which enters within the veil—where Jesus has entered for us, having become a forerunner forever according to the order of Milchezedech.” Heb6:19-20.
The torn veil is Christianity, it is everything. When is the last time you heard a “torn-veil-sermon”? Probably never.
That must be the greatest tragedy ever. Spread the Gospel to all nations, to all men—and what do you tell them? That they can be “walking-in-sin-saved”? Maybe what Jesus brought is simply a bucket of whitewash, keep your fornication/adultery/pornography/drunkenness/stealing/murdering/whatever, we’ll just paint over your filth and DON’T WORRY YOU WON’T REALLY DIE.”
Would that be the truth? No.
Tell them about the VEIL. Tell them about His LOVE. Yes He’s also just, but He condemns no one (Jn3:17-18), those who get condemned do it to themselves.
Does anyone dispute anything said here? Go with God, and He with you; Christianity is a PARTY (Matt22:2-14 “wedding feast” social event of the time—singing, feasting, music, dancing, laughing, a celebration of joy). They can hate us, persecute us, kill us, they cannot stop us from loving them and inviting them to the party. Even if they kill us, we’ll still be at the party. And whoever DECLINES, we will miss you—we will weep for you and so will God (Ezk18:31-32). And then we will live forever.
We would SO much rather live forever WITH you; for we are you, the same, without His love and grace.
Do you understand now, dear reader? You are “the treasure we can take with us”. Tomorrow will be too late, “now is the time today is the day of your salvation” (2Cor6:2).
What are you waiting for?
> Tell them about the VEIL. Tell them about His LOVE.
Tell them about His righteousness.
“God made Him who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf, so
that through Him we may become the righteousness of God.”
2Cor5:21.
He who practices righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous, he who does not practice righteousness is not of God. (By this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed.) We are to be perfect even as He is perfect, Matt5:48. It’s all “His righteousness in us”—He has wrapped us with a robe of righteousness and clothed us in garments of salvation (Isaiah61:10). 2Cor13:5 warns us to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith—we examine ourselves by our fruits; sins we find only reveal that we must draw closer to Him, because the closer we are to Him (James2:4-10) the farther we are from whatever He does not like.
2Cor13:5 clearly conveys that we can be “adokimos-castaway” (disqualified), the same word Paul uses in 1Cor9:25-27, “race so as to WIN (an imperishable wreath); I discipline my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others I myself would not be disqualified (adokimos)”. Contrast that with “dokimos-approved” James1:12 and 2Tim2:15. What do you think those mean?
It’s all about the veil; we are UNITED with Him (Rom6:5, sumphutos)—we are of the Light—or we are of the darkness. A woman cannot be 1%, 2%, 20% pregnant, neither can we be part-time Christians.
John 8:12 “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me
will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
…will not be “backslidden”.
Where does your heart live? In His arms, forever?
Why not? Matt22:37!!!
Gadeteer,
One thing that you are missing is…
Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Jesus took our sins while on the cross, hence, the word, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me”.
Sure, he was beaten to a pulp, disfigured, etc., before he died, but that is NOTHING compared to what happened to him AFTER he died with Satan and the demons.
Judgment of sins is after one dies, not while alive.
Jonah 2 gives a hint of what it was like.
So does 2 Samuel 22 and Psalms 18.
When it is said that he took our punishment…it was in hell that he took that punishment. The earth, while he was alive, that’s just a REFLECTION for us to see, but it was much worse in hell for him. Until…
Jesus had to DEFEAT Satan in hell.
Ed Chapman
Hi, Ed. I don’t know about what happened to Jesus after he died; my posts are about what we do with Jesus’s gift of grace, posts fully backed by exact scriptures–either the scriptures are cited right (valid exegesis), or wrong. It’s my experience that no one will engage the verses, and most won’t change. There us a saying about some things “die hard”.
What good is it to debate James White, if the alternative is ALSO “infallible salvation”? Scripture is replete with warnings against falling. Amidst that, the majority of “Christians”, aren’t saved.
I probably shouldn’t have called out the denomination of those who placed invitations on my door (“you can be fallen from Jesus but still saved”), or that of the booth in the local state fair (“you can be walking in sin but still saved”). I was raised in a different denomination which was Calvinistic/OSAS. Denominations do not matter; most Protestants are not saved, most Catholics are not. (Post on the main Catholic message board, you will find spirit-filled saved Christians.)
I asked “what the SHEEP (the saved Jesus places on His right when He returns) have, that the goats (the unsaved He places on His left) do not? John answers in 1:5:11-12, the saved have Jesus; but in what sense? A ceramic or plush fuzzy “elf-on-our-shelf”? Are we blissful about being babes/carnal/immature, confident that He will keep us saved in spite of our constant sin? Jesus does not want to be an “elf-on-the-shelf”; the veil tore, because we’re invited behind for indwelt fellowship with all three persons of God. Gal2:20 only works because of the torn veil.
All three OSAS views are known for saying “backslidden-but-saved”; if we truly love God (as commanded Matt22:37, Deut6:5), why would we want to pursue sin rather than His presence? How can we miss all the dictate that “we are EITHER slaves to sin OR united with Christ and the Father and the Spirit”? Jesus said, “Those who practice sin are slaves to sin; so whom the Son sets free is free indeed.” What kind of corruption is it to embrace “saved/in-Christ/backslidden/walking-in-sin”?
The comments section here exists for interaction between Leighton Flowers and staff, and comments from the public; it’s unusual for someone to make a series of teaching-posts. But is the teaching scriptural/godly? Then–the whole issue is what’s BEHIND Christianity. There is no Once Saved Always Saved, neither White’s Calvinism, nor Flowers’ Eternal Security. And most claim “I’m saved because I believe ____”, and have no idea what salvation is. All I want is for people to open their Bible and look up the verses. Don’t just post “proof-texts” while not interacting with what was cited, answer the verses.
And I really want them to experience the joy and intimate fellowship that Jesus brought (Jn15:11, Jn17:3); for eternity has already begun in those who abide in Him and pursue His righteousness. When He returns we do not have to run to greet Him; we are already with Him in our hearts and spirits now, as when He _physically_ returns.
We already dwell within the veil, in Him; and He in us.
Gaggeteer,
You had said:
What good is it to debate James White, if the alternative is ALSO “infallible salvation”?
My response:
I fully get it! I’ve been saying something like that for years.
Seems that in most arguments against or for Calvinism, there’s only two sides of the coin.
Calvinism or Arminianism, which came out of Catholicism.
They all consider anything outside of those as heresy. Neither like Palagianism very much.
Ed Chapman