When teaching on John 6, John Piper asserts that God, by a sovereign and effectual act of the Spirit, regenerates some people which decisively causes them to come to saving faith. Piper puts it this way,
The teaching that I want to try to persuade you is biblical and, therefore, true and precious is that the new birth is the result of the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit preceding and enabling our first act of saving faith. We do not cause our new birth by an act of faith. Just the reverse: the cry of faith is the first sound that a newborn babe in Christ makes. Regeneration, as we sometimes call it, is all of God. We do not get God to do it by trusting Christ; we trust Christ because he has done it to us already….
So he says in John 6:43, 44, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” No one can come to Jesus unless drawn by God. The natural man cannot submit himself to God until a supernatural work of grace is done in his life, called “new birth” in John 3 and the “drawing of God” in John 6….
Therefore it follows that saving faith does not precede and cause the new birth. But rather God the Father, by the agency of his Holy Spirit, regenerates freely whomever he pleases and by this draws a person to the Son enabling him to believe in the Son and be saved. This is “prevenient grace”—the gracious work of God preceding and enabling the act of faith. It is “irresistible grace.” There are divine influences which can be resisted, but there are also those which cannot be. <link>
Piper uses John 6 to suggest that mankind is in such a condition from birth that they must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to believe divinely revealed truth. But what about people in the Old Testament? Piper would have to assume that they were born in this same disabled condition, right?
What, if anything, changed about the role of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost? How did the Holy Spirit work in the lives of those who came to faith before Christ died and the Holy Spirit came down like fire? Was He actively regenerating (effectually drawing) a preselected few as Piper dogmatically asserts in his soteriological teachings on John 6? Did the role of the Holy Spirit change in any way from the Old Testament times to the New Testament times with regard to soteriology? Should the fact that John 6 took place prior to the resurrection and Pentecost affect our understanding of the passage?
In other words, was Enoch, Lot, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Rahab, Ruth, David and the rest of the Old Testament saints effectually regenerated by a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit so as to effectually cause them to believe in God’s revealed truth in the same way Piper supposes the elect are today? If we are going to interpret John 6 as addressing an overarching ontological reality of fallen men’s need to be “regenerated” in order to believe in truth revealed by God, then what other option is there than to conclude that the OT saints were effectually impacted by the Holy Spirit so as to decisively cause their faith?
John 7:39 clearly states, “The Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified,” which indicates that the role of the Holy Spirit would change at least in some respect after Christ was raised up (see John 12:32). What kind of change would occur after the coming of the Holy Spirit? John Piper confesses confusion on this point as reflected in this response to a question about the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament:
The relationship between the old covenant and the new covenant is complex and I do not have all the intricacies worked out yet. The work of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost is part of this problem…
The hardest verses for me are John 14:16ff, “And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper, that he may be with you forever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not behold him or know him, but you know him because he abides with you and will be in you.”
Also 7:39 is especially troublesome: “the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.” I’m not at all sure I understand John’s pneumatology (especially 20:22), but I suspect the key to it is found in the identification of the earthly Jesus with the Holy Spirit: “He is with you but will be in you” (14:17 cf. 6:63).
Since the Spirit which Christians enjoy is known to be the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), perhaps John thinks it inappropriate to think of the Spirit in this sense as having come. Theologically I would ask who the agent is in accomplishing the “drawing” of 6:44 and the enabling of 6:65? Do we postulate that God the Father works directly without the agency of the Spirit? Or can we not suppose that the Spirit was redemptively at work during Christ’s earthly ministry and that the Spirit which has not yet come is that particular manifestation of the Spirit which will equip the apostles uniquely for calling to remembrance all things (14:26) and guiding into all truth (16:13)?
These are just gropings. I do not have the problem of Johannine pneumatology solved. <link>
When responding to a fellow brother’s pressing question, Piper humbly admits his own confusion and even speculates about the unique role of the Holy Spirit with regard to guiding the apostles during His earthly ministry (which ironically sounds a lot like our interpretation of John 6…see HERE). Yet, when teaching the TULIP systematic out of John 6, Piper dogmatically asserts, “God the Father, by the agency of his Holy Spirit, regenerates freely whomever he pleases and by this draws a person to the Son enabling him to believe in the Son and be saved… It is ‘irresistible grace.’ There are divine influences which can be resisted, but there are also those which cannot be.”
How can it be dogmatically presumed that the Holy Spirit is effectually regenerating (i.e. “drawing”) preselected individuals prior to Christ’s death and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost given Piper’s own concessions above? John Piper’s “problem of Johannine pneumatology” is created by the soteriological presumptions he brings into the text, not by a lack of clarity on the part of the apostle John.
The Provisionist/Traditionalist’s interpretation of John 6 does not have this problem because we do not assume that mankind lost the moral ability to willingly respond to God’s clear revelation due to the Fall, especially revelation brought by the Incarnate Word of God Himself! There would be nothing preventing the natural man from understanding and believing Jesus’ teachings from our perspective.
We believe that those who have listened and learned from the Father would be ready to follow His Son (John 6:45), and those who have continually refused to listen and learn from the Father would certainly have grown hardened in their rebellion and thus be unwilling to follow His Son, like good sheep (John 10:25-27).
John 6 must be understood within its immediate context. Jesus is only revealing His identity to His closest followers and strategically hiding the truth from the rest (Mk 9:9; Mt. 16:20; Mt. 11:25). We must understand that Jesus is using parabolic language to blind the self-righteous Jews of that day from recognizing Him as their long-awaited Messiah (Mk 4:11-12, 33-35). That, and that alone, is the reason His Jewish audience was incapable of coming to Him in faith (John 12:39-41). There is absolutely no reason to believe that all of fallen humanity is born morally incapable of responding positively to God’s own Holy Spirit wrought appeals to be reconciled from that fall. That imposed doctrine creates Piper’s confusion and contradictions represented above.
If it is true that all people are born morally incapable of willingly responding in faith to God’s revelation, there would be absolutely no rational reason for Christ to use parabolic language in order to hide the truth from the Jews of his day, as reflected in the passages below:
“As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead” (Mark 9:9).
“Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ” (Matt. 16:20)
“But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was” (Mark 3:12).
“Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him” (Mark 8:30).
“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ” ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ …With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.“ (Mark 4:11-12; 33-34).
“He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet: “ ‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.” For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” (Acts 28:23-28)
What purpose would the parables of Christ serve if Piper’s teaching on “Total Inability” is valid? Jesus uses of riddles would be as senseless as putting a blindfold on a corpse. And why tell them to keep His identity hidden if they were morally incapable of believing in Him unless first regenerated anyway? <More on Jesus’ strategic use of parables can be found here.>
“Text without context is a pretext for proof-text.”
Context tells us the history, the setting, the audience and thus helps understand the intention of the author. The grammar can inform us of what interpretations are allowed, but the author’s intent is best discovered in the overall context.
The sixth chapter of John is one of the top three most contested passages in all of scripture regarding the doctrine of salvation (along with Rom. 9 and Eph. 1). So, as students of scripture lets put our hermeneutical training to work and answer the major questions about the context of this hotly contested chapter:
1. What is the context?
2. Who is the audience?
3. What is going on at this time?
The audience is a bunch of unbelieving Israelites looking for free food (vs. 25-31) and the twelve apostles (vs. 70). What do we know about the Israelites of this day?
- They have “become calloused…Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them” (Acts 28:27). They were not born calloused, but over time they had grown hardened in their religious self-righteousness which prevented them from hearing, seeing and responding to the revelation of God.
- They are being ‘judicially hardened’ (or ‘cut off’ or ‘sent a spirit of stupor’) so as to seal them in their calloused condition. Why? To accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through their rebellion (crucifixion, ingrafting Gentiles into the church — Rom. 9-11).
- Jesus is not attempting to “win them over” or have them come to faith in great numbers as we see in Acts 2 when Peter preaches. In fact, in support of God’s judicial hardening of Israel, we see Jesus actively instructing his apostles to not tell others who he is yet (Mt. 16:20). Jesus purposefully speaks in parables in order to prevent their coming to faith and repentance (Mark 4:11-13; Matt. 13:11-15). If anything, Jesus is actively provoking the Jews with very difficult teachings. In this chapter, he tells them to eat his flesh and drink his blood without explanation (vs. 51-52). Clearly, He is not attempting to persuade this audience to stick around. He is provoking them purposefully (1 Cor. 2:6-8).
Is this contextual information relevant when attempting to understand the author’s intention with regard to the natural inability of mankind from birth? I certainly would think so given he is addressing a large group of people nicknamed “the elect of God” who are being actively blinded by God from seeing the truth (albeit temporarily and for a redemptive purpose). <see John 12:39-41>
Notice, the judicially hardened Jews are not the only ones present when Jesus is speaking in John 6. The twelve apostles are also in the audience and in fact, they are the only ones who stick around after Jesus is done provoking the crowd with a “cannibalistic” sounding message (vs. 66-67).
Why didn’t the twelve leave too? It is almost as if they were “drawn to him” through persuasive teachings and miraculous signs. Remember, unlike the other Israelites in the audience, they had watched Jesus walk on water, control the weather, heal the blind, feed the masses and had personally explained to them the meaning of the mysteries that the world had not yet been given (Eph. 3: 1-13). [Note: nothing is mentioned in the text of God using an inward, irresistible calling or work of regeneration to convince his apostles. Thomas is shown the scars in order to be persuaded. Jesus clearly indicates his signs are meant to help their unbelief.]
Those Jesus are entrusting with the truth from Israel are only a select few at this time while He was “down from heaven” (see Acts 10:40-43). The rest are being hardened in their already calloused self-righteous stubborn condition…NOT a condition from birth due to the Fall (as Calvinists impose onto this text), but a condition which was a result of their own free rebellion. A condition God is using to accomplish a greater redemptive good for all.
Great article Leighton and great breakdown of context. I believe there’s another point of context that is just as important that the Calvinist misses or ignores here. The context of this section of John 6 is Jesus clearly teaching that He was the son of God, that He and the Father were one, and that if you’ve seen and heard the son you’ve seen and heard the father. The Jews were questioning Jesus validity and who he was.
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.””
John 6:38, 40, 42, 51, 58
Essentially the Jews were saying, we are followers of Jehovah, and followers of Moses, but you, Jesus, we don’t believe you. We don’t believe you came down from heaven. Jesus, in John 6:44 and 45 is essentially answering them, if you were truly followers of Jehovah and Moses, you would believe that I am the son of God and came down from heaven. Based on the context, this is what Jesus was specifically addressing to this audience at this time in his ministry when he said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.”
Great points AndyB2015!
That is exactly how I have viewed this passage in the context.
Another way to illustrate could be like this –
“All the emails that my server gives to me shall come to me”. This just states the fact that if you don’t address the email to my email account it won’t come to me. My server doesn’t receive the email nor do I. All I would be stating is that you must get the email address right for me and my server to receive the email. We work together and the order is paramount – My name first, followed by the address of the server; but notice it will go to the server first and then the server gives it to me; but if you didn’t address it to me the server will not get it.
In the same way Jesus is stating that you must come according to God’s plan of salvation to be saved which is by the grace of God through faith in Christ otherwise you will not be received by God.
I am often left scratching my head on how some come to drawing conclusions in word use when it specifically comes to the bible. These same confusions are not made In ordinary conversations, as I will illustrate.
To me, this is an unnecessary deep dive into plainly written and understood texts. There are 2 mistakes in proper lexicon made in this text. One is quite obvious, and the other requires a comparison. Words are defined first by their surrounding context, and then by their cultural usage. For example, if I say “Tom was tired after running a tough and long race”, you may assume I am talking about literally running. If I add context, the lexicon becomes apparent. For example, if instead I say, “Tom was tired after running a tough and long race. Ever since the nominations for class president began, Tom went all in to win the votes.” It becomes apparent what is being meant here. Running in this instance is figurative. Same is true in John 6:44 and 45. The Greek word for draw is helko. This word is both figuratively used and literally used. How do we know which definition fits? Jesus completely handles that in 6:45. When he says, “those who are taught…” teaching, or persuading is the figurative expression. If it were literal, then salvation requires being literally drug into the presence of Jesus. There would be no debating this verse if we are literally drug into the sheep pen. Since it’s figurative, the verb becomes passive. This means that the drawing is figurative. Figurative drawing is done through persuasion, or teaching. Simple proper lexicon goes a long way in avoiding foolish controversy.
Hello Kevin and welcome
Kevin:
Figurative drawing is done through persuasion, or teaching. Simple proper lexicon goes a long way in avoiding foolish controversy.
br.d
Excellent point!
So as mature adults – we should be able to see that any distortion in the reading of scripture – which comes off so obviously as being introduced by design – occurs in order to make scripture conform to the propositions of a given theology.
The Jehovah’s Witness have this also as their practice.
Bending the “reading of the text” to make it APPEAR to affirm their theology.
We can’t physically alter the text without getting caught doing so.
So what we do is more subtle.
We stand over the shoulders of the Bible reader (like the serpent in the garden) and we teach the reader what each verse means.
And it just happens that each verse – in such case – turned out affirming our theology!
What a coincidence! :-]
Good thoughts. I also think it would be helpful to do a careful study of the concept of hardening. It is likely a reference to the process of hardening soft clay into a permanently waterproof, solid shape. What is not inherent in the meaning of the word is why or how a vessel became the shape that it is.
The shaping or crafting of the vessel is an entirely different step from the decision that it is as good as it is going to get, and setting it aside to harden. A potter might reshape a piece of clay multiple times, and only when it is suitably formed will he allow it to harden. When God hardens an individual in their sin, he is giving up on reworking them into something more beautiful. He is acknowledging the sad reality that this particular clay is flawed by foreign substances, or no longer malleable, and is not useful for turning into an intricate, beautiful work of art. Rather than throwing it out, he crafts a simple pot, such as those used for sanitary purposes.
Eventually, the potter takes his hands off and allows his vessel to harden in its current, less than glorious state. Allowing the sinner to retain the shape they have stubbornly chosen, acknowledging that this clay has picked up foreign substances that mar its ability to be smoothly shaped, does not indicate that God was the one who deliberately marred his own clay. In fact, he would be a very unwise potter who would deliberately infect his material with imperfections.
The second thought that hardening brings to mind is that those vessels not set aside to harden are those which remain malleable to the touch of the master’s hand. Not having absorbed the marring bits of stone, metal and debris that spoil its potential, the more yielding, malleable clay allows the master to continue his patient, expert craftmanship.
The concept of hardening, contrary to Calvinism’s claims, contradicts the theology of Divine Determinism.
Following
An additional comment to the above. See these three verses.
John 6:44-45
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” “It is written in the prophets, ‘ AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.”. John 6:44-45
John 14:6
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
John 14:6 NASB
John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
John 12:32 NASB
These three verses appear to contradict each other at first glance. One says no one can come to the Jesus unless through the Father. Another says no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. One says the Father does the drawing. Another says Jesus does the drawing. When one pulls one verse out of context as the Calvinist does, and says that the father must irresistibly drag (their definition of draw (greek -helko, or elko) a person and regenerate him before he can come to Christ, then we have a real problem and real contradiction here between these various verses (BTW, I’ve read a ton of Calvinist literature and heard a ton of sermons and not once have I heard this contradiction addressed by a Calvinist).
But read and understand in context, that Jesus is teaching the truth to this specific audience at this specific time, the truth being that he and the father are one …
John 14:7 … “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” John 14:9 … “Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” John 14:10,11 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.”
Understanding this, and that Jesus is teaching this particular audience and correcting them on their assertion that they can be a follower of the father father and Moses but at the same time reject the son, he says you must know the father and be drawn by Him in order to come to Christ (No once can come to Me unless the father who sent Me draws him), but if you were truly of the father and truly knew the Father you would come to Christ (everyone who hears and learns from the father comes to the Christ), then the contradiction goes away. Jesus and the Father are one, and a Jew at the time Jesus is speaking to them can be drawn by the father and come to the son, later, after Christ’s death and resurrection, one can be drawn by Jesus and come to the Father.
Unfortunately for the Calvinist when they pull this verse out of context and make it say what they want it to say to match Augustinian philosophy, they are stuck with Jesus irresistibly dragging (same greek Helko, or elko) all men to himself and Jesus being confused on who is doing the irresistibly dragging, the Father in one place, Jesus in another?
Nice post andyb2015
Thank you!
Additionally I would point out that the Calvinist has no certainty that any of the promises in scripture apply to him.
He may be elected for eternal torment
One of those Calvinists whom Calvin’s god holds out salvation as -quote “greater condemnation”
Making all of these verses in scripture totally theoretical for the Calvinist.
John Piper
-quote
“I do not have all the intricacies worked out yet”
br.d
Neither does Joanne Rowling – the author of Harry Potter
All together – she’s received a couple dozen official international recognition awards – for “intricacies” she’s worked out so far.
Making stuff up – requires working out a whole lot of “intricacies”! :-]
I think there are many questions left unanswered regarding Christ’s earthly ministry (including John 6).
Why did Jesus select only Galileans as His apostles? And He referred to them as His “little flock” (Luke 12:32).
Why did Jesus say “I was not sent except/only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”? Didn’t He know that would tick off (provoke/anger) those from the House of Judah (who God never divorced)?
Romans 10:19 (NKJV)….
But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
Is that a “foolish nation” from God’s perspective or from Judea’s perspective?
Why was Jesus, for the most part, welcomed in Galilee (north of Samaria, which was north of Judea)?
John 4:45 (NKJV)….
So when He came to Galilee, the Galileans received Him, having seen all the things He did in Jerusalem at the feast; for they also had gone to the feast.
And why was His life in jeopardy in Judea?
John 7:1 (NKJV)….
After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him.
My point is to simply point out that there a many questions unanswered regarding Christ’s earthly ministry (this includes John 6). A lot of us are just speculating (which is healthy). Others are just passing down the traditions they have been taught themselves (via colleges and seminaries).
I am of the opinion that something else is going on entirely. Things that we haven’t even considered. Now I believe Piper is wrong (about many things). I think Calvinism is wrong. But this doesn’t mean that my Traditionalists brothers are right either. The first law of science is “I do not know”. I believe that is the best way to approach the scriptures as well. With an open mind and open heart.
Amen. The best we can do is continue reading, studying and praying for greater understanding of God and his plans. Digging through scripture to find weapons with which to defend our cherished belief systems is not an appropriate use of scripture.
Agreed wholeheartedly Phillip and TSOO. Starting with what scripture actually says with no presuppositions and keeping what is written within its context is a good start though don’t you think?
Andy, I do not think it is possible to come to scripture without any presuppositions, even had we lived in a cave and knew nothing whatsoever about the history or teachings of scripture. We still have presuppositions about what is possible, acceptable or good, what the meanings of ‘all’, ‘believe’ and ‘salvation’ are, etc.
I think the more we realize how much we bring to scripture, the more we can grant that our understanding is unavoidably limited and slanted. That is not meant to be discouraging, but simply to remind us that we must remain humble, teachable and willing to consider possibilities that are foreign and/or uncomfortable to us.
I believe that the whole concept of needing a systematic theology is questionable. If we have the faith of a child, we have all that we need for God to work in and through us. Indeed, I feel somewhat as if I have traded in my carefully researched theology for my old, childlike faith – and I am much better off for it.
Andy B
Dont forget to impose “all KINDS of men” to that verse.
John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
Yes FOH.Sorry, I forgot I can’t read scripture for what it actually says. I need Augustine and Calvin to tell me what it really “means”
Thank you for this article it is Very helpful in how I can approach those I care about who hold to calvinism. Love that you pointed out the Holy Spirits role after pentecost & how Piper is honest in his lack of understanding.
TSOO, I believe that the whole concept of needing a systematic theology is questionable. If we have the faith of a child, we have all that we need for God to work in and through us. Indeed, I feel somewhat as if I have traded in my carefully researched theology for my old, childlike faith – and I am much better off for it.
Reggie, I agree 100% with you I didn’t grow up in the church I had no preconceived notions of anything theological when I cried out to the Lord! It was only after I experienced His love and gracious gift that I even heard there were sides. I will never forget my feelings at that moment it was one of “Who cares about sides I’m forgiven and loved by the One and only God of creation!! But of course that innocent bliss started wearing off in discovering through reading God’s Word & hearing what “others” taught didn’t line up with what I knew I’d been taught by;
John 16:13 NASB — “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
I agree we all need to thoughtfully continue to read His Word, but this site is so helpful in strategically giving me tools to authentically engage. It is said to know a counterfeit bill you need to study real money.. I love that analogy in approaching Scripture.
1 Corinthians 2:13 NASB — which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
Thank you doesn’t convey it properly,🙏
Right on Reggie!, I Love it!
I bet that when you cried out to the Lord you believed that God sent his Son to die for your sins, and not only your sins but for every sinners sins. I bet that you realized that he was risen from the dead that you might have eternal life, and at that moment realizing by the grace of God in Jesus Christ anyone can cry out to the Lord and be saved, and that’s what was so appealing. I bet you thought, Wow! what a Savior! I bet you thought I need to tell the rest of my unsaved family that they can be saved too. I bet you thought I need to tell my friends how they can be saved too. And this is the gospel that you ACCEPTED.
And then comes along a Calvinist and subtly says – Yea, hath God said? Did Jesus really die for everybody
“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his SUBTILTY, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, WHICH YE HAVE NOT ACCEPTED, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4
Amen Damon this is all absolutely true! Thank you!
Brothers/Sisters,
The below is taken from wikipedia….
“Piper’s soteriology is Calvinist and his ecclesiology is Baptist. He affirms the distinctively Calvinist doctrine of double predestination, which includes ‘unconditional reprobation’ or damnation as a corollary to the Augustinian doctrine of unconditional election, and he subscribes to the Leibnizian view that God decreed this universe to be the best of all possible universes.
Piper believes in justification by faith alone apart from works of man, and his teachings emphasize the need for the active and inevitable perseverance of the believer in faith, sanctification, and enduring sufferings, which he believes is evidence of God’s saving grace. According to Piper, a once-professing Christian who does not faithfully persevere until the end demonstrates that he was mistaken about his election and was never a true believer in the first place.
Piper describes himself as an ‘optimistic premillennialist’ and holds a post-tribulation view of the second coming of Jesus and of the Rapture, which teaches that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation. Because of this belief, he maintains that Romans 11 teaches that a mass in-gathering of ethnic Israel will be saved when the hardening of their hearts is removed at Jesus’ second coming. He therefore advocates the importance of hoping in the resurrection of the dead at Christ’s return.
Piper does not deny of the typical hermeneutical frameworks, but is furthest from dispensationalism, and closest to Covenant Theology, or a New Covenant theology in matters of the Law and covenants, but agrees with the dispensationalist belief that there will be a millennium. He says that the Law was meant by God to reveal sin and show man’s inability to live up to God’s righteous standards. Christians, living under the New Covenant, are not under the Old Covenant law but able to fulfill its intent through faith in Jesus Christ.
Piper teaches that God has only one covenant people, mostly believing Jews in the Old Testament, and now that people consists of all the followers of Christ, or the Church, whether Jew or Gentile. Piper asserts that Israel has rights from God to dwell in that land, but not because they are merely Jewish, and Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah have no divine right of claim on those promises. Piper also believes that all Christians, Jew or Gentile, will inherit the earth, including the land of Israel, when Christ sets up the millennial kingdom in the Second Coming.”
I find I have very little in common with Piper. I disagree with him entirely regarding Calvinism. And by that I mean every single petal of the TULIP. I disagree with him regarding pre-millennialism. I disagree with him regarding Covenant Theology. He probably can’t tell the average Joe what the gospel is (let that one soak in). Maybe there are some biblical truths Piper has stumbled upon, but it wouldn’t be something that isn’t glaringly obvious to even the most novice bible readers.
Now here’s the hoot (again, taken from wikipedia)…..
“Piper attended Wheaton College (1964–1968) majoring in literature and minoring in philosophy. Studying romantic literature with Clyde Kilby stimulated his poetic side, and today he regularly composes poetry to celebrate special family occasions as well as annually composing story-poems (based on the life of biblical characters) for his congregation during the four weeks of Advent.
In college, he was originally on the pre-medicine track, only to decide to go into ministry during a bout of sickness, while listening to the sermons of Harold Ockenga over the radio from his hospital bed. He then completed a Bachelor of Divinity degree at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. While at Fuller, he took several courses from Daniel Fuller and through him discovered the writings of Jonathan Edwards. Along with C. S. Lewis, Edwards and Fuller are noted influences in Piper’s life and ministry.
Piper received his Doctor of Theology degree in New Testament Studies at the University of Munich, Germany (1971–1974) under Leonhard Goppelt. His dissertation, Love Your Enemies, was published by Cambridge University Press and Baker Book House. Upon completion of his doctorate, he taught Biblical Studies at Bethel University and Seminary in Saint Paul, Minnesota, for six years (1974–1980).”
Now here’s the question(s). Knowing what we already know, if Piper had a degree in dentistry (or medicine), would you go to him? If you needed a medical procedure, would you let him be your Surgeon? If you needed medication, would you let him fill out your prescription? If Piper had a degree in Engineering, would you walk into his building? Cross over his bridge? If he had a degree in aviation (if he was a pilot), would you board his plane? If he was a Financial Planner, would you give him your money? Just take Piper’s opening sentence in the article above…
“The teaching that I want to try to persuade you IS BIBLICAL and, therefore, true and precious is that the new birth is the result of the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit preceding and enabling our first act of saving faith.”
Wrong. Right out of the gate and he’s wrong. That opening statement is just as UNBIBLICAL as stating that 25 people were on the ark (there were only 8. Genesis 7:7, 1 Peter 3:2)
All those hours of schooling. All that time reading. All that time of studying.
And he is wrong (just like the religious leaders during Christ’s earthly ministry). It would appear that Piper finally received his doctrine in philosophy after all. Because if you believe man can’t believe until regenerated, that only the elect will be saved and the non-elect lost, that Christ died only for a tiny fragment of mankind, and that God determines every minute detail of your existence (up to and including every sneeze), then you aren’t really a Theologian, but rather a bloviating Philosopher, regardless what that piece of paper hanging on the wall says.
Just need to provide some clarification to my earlier post.
“Piper describes himself as an ‘optimistic premillennialist’ and holds a post-tribulation view of the second coming of Jesus and of the Rapture, which teaches that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation.”
I am definitely pre-millennial regarding Christ’s second coming and establishing/restoring the kingdom to Israel. Where I disagree with Piper, if I understand correctly, is the church going thru the great tribulation. I am pre-trib and not post-trib. It is called a time of Jacob’s trouble for a reason.
Now I don’t necessarily agree with the “Left Behind” series which teaches that millions will disappear from the earth. I lean that by the time the rapture takes place, there just won’t be that many “Christians” on the planet. For example, when judgment came the first time (the flood), how many out of mankind were “caught up”? Only 8. Now I don’t believe 8 is the magic number, but I also don’t see millions upon millions of people suddenly disappearing.
Just my opinion. Hope that helps.
Phillip,
Interesting stuff. Thank you for this. I’m curious if anyone knows when and how Piper became a believer? Is he one of those who just “grew into it,” as I’ve heard some Calvinists preachers say about themselves?
And Piper saying “The teaching that I want to try to persuade you IS BIBLICAL and, therefore, true …” sounds like Calvin (in his Institutes, book 1, chapter 18, section 3) saying “As I have hirtherto stated only what is plainly and unambiguously stated in Scripture …”
If they tell us that what they are teaching is biblical and based solely on Scripture, we shut off our critical thinking and trust them. Because, after all, they said they are “teaching right from the Bible.” So it must be true, right!?!
It’s manipulation. It keeps people from wanting to disagree with them for fear that we might look like we disagree with the Bible. (Calvinists are big on shaming people and manipulating people into their view. “Humble Christians accept the ‘truth’ of predestination. Who are you to speak against God!?! God calls us to be humble like children, and little children don’t have trouble accepting predestination. It’s only us proud, self-sufficient adults who have trouble with it because we like to think we’re independent and in control of our choices.” And on and on.)
Calvin goes on with more manipulation (I wrote about this in a post called “Problems with Calvin’s Institutes …”, click on my name to go to my blog):
“As I have hirtherto stated only what is plainly and unambiguously stated in Scripture, those who hesitate not to stigmatise what is thus taught by the sacred oracles, had better beware what kind of censure they employ. If, under a pretence of ignorance, they seek the praise of modesty, what greater arrogance can be imagined than to utter one word in opposition to the authority of God… Such petulance, indeed, is not new. In all ages there have been wicked and profane men, who rabidly assailed this branch of doctrine.”
I am a bit confused about the “hesitate not to stigmatise” part, but from what I gather from the rest of this … Calvin is saying that those who disagree with his view of God’s all-controlling micromanaging are going against the “plain and unambiguous” teachings of Scripture, as Calvin has “so clearly taught” (according to him). If they disagree with Calvin, they are disagreeing with the “sacred oracles.” And they are operating under ignorance. Seeking praise. Arrogant. Opposing God. Petulant. Wicked and profane. Viciously attacking doctrinal truth.
Yep … who is going to disagree with him when this is how he paints those who disagree with him?
Manipulation! Way to ensure that no one will disagree with you, Calvin! And way to discredit anyone who does!
I have no problem with God’s authority. I am not speaking against God’s authority. But I do have a problem with Calvinism’s view of how God uses His authority. And there’s a big difference!
[And regarding Calvin’s question of “what greater arrogance can be imagined” …
… hmm, let me imagine for a moment …
I imagine that a “greater arrogance” would be acting like you have the right to alter God’s character and the truth about Jesus’s sacrifice and God’s saving grace and His love for all men, to decide for yourself that God doesn’t love all men enough to die for them, that He predestines people to hell for His glory and pleasure, that He causes evil and sin and unbelief but then punishes us for it, and that He doesn’t give people a choice about Him … when SCRIPTURE CLEARLY TEACHES THE OPPOSITE! And then to go out and spread your heresy among men, convincing them that your Calvinism is the Gospel, manipulating them into spreading your heresy as truth.
I would think that would be a much “greater arrogance” than saying that God doesn’t cause/control everything that happens because He has chosen not to, that He has decided to give men a certain degree of free-will and influence and responsibility in this world, and that He allows us to make choices and so He is righteous and just when He holds us accountable for our choices – a view that is supported by Scripture and upholds God’s revealed character.
But I’m just thinking out loud here. But I guess we’ll find out for sure later when we stand before God and have to explain how we handled His Truth, what we said about Him, what we taught others about Him and His love and His grace and His sacrifice.]
Heather and Philip – You have nailed it…arrogance, bullying, and telling people to just believe what they are saying. But then again their namesake leader John Calvin was the master of this art. Telling people not to examine things too closely or they will get in trouble from God himself and ( by God’s sovereign control you might even get burned at the stake).
When writing about Predestination John Calvin warns, “curious men are not to peer into the secrets of God, just as we are not to curiously peer into the Sun itself?”
And again: “It is any wonder that such immense splendour should blunt the acuteness of our mind? Our physical eyes are not enough to sustain a contemplation of the sun. Is our spiritual insight greater than our natural powers, or the majesty of God inferior to the glory of the sun? It is becoming in us, then, not to be too inquisitive….” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.184-185,
“For the man who honestly and soberly reflects on these things, there can be no doubt that the will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God,
“Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God,)
Did Calvin’s theology give him cover for Burning Servetus …. I think so. That is one of the reasons Calvinism is soooo dangerous.
Calvin “If Servetus comes to Geneva, I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.” AFTER Burning Servetus “Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that(they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face.” “Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt.” There are many more that Calvin destroyed that we do not talk about.
This is the man sooo many Young Restless and Entitled are following nowadays.
Why does Calvin want us not to be too inquisitive because he is going to say and do some absurd things that are illogical and especially anti-biblical and he is preparing us to not ask hard questions.
Heather/GraceAdict,
The reason, as they see it, they are Calvinists and we are not is because they have been divinely enabled. God has opened their eyes to scripture while we are still blind. The difference between them and us is….GRACE.
How do you even get thru to someone who believes, really believes, they have been divinely enabled, while you haven’t?
Good Summary Phillip. I think you nailed it on so many fronts.
“Piper believes in justification by faith alone”
I’ve been thinking lately, that someone like Piper, although he proclaims “sola fide”, does not truly believe in justification by faith alone. What he actually believes in is “sola eklektos.” In the end, for a Calvinist, what is their answer to the question “why is one person saved and the person next to him not saved?” It’s not because one person had faith and the next one didn’t, because neither of them had the ability to receive the gospel by faith. The core, first, and foremost reason is because one person was elected and the next person was not elected for salvation. Even if they want to argue that faith is in there somewhere, they still can’t proclaim faith alone. Their cry would have to be “eklectos”, “paliggenesia,” “fide” For Piper, faith is not alone, it’s just third in line after election and pre-faith regeneration.
If anyone doubts this, just read the what Piper believes about assurance of salvation.
“According to Piper, a once-professing Christian who does not faithfully persevere until the end demonstrates that he was mistaken about his election and was never a true believer in the first place.”
For the Bible believing non-Calvinist, his assurance comes from scripture which assures us that we are saved as a result of placing one’s faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. What assures salvation for the Calvinist? Is it faith that Piper cites in his belief statement for assurance? No. It all comes down and is dependent on election and outward proofs of election, not faith and certainly not faith alone.
Andy,
Precisely. I read that quote as well (from wikipedia). Very telling.
So, for the Pied Piper its….
Justification thru faith alone, thru regeneration alone, thru election alone.
Even A.W. Pink’s “The Doctrines of Election and Justification” responds to the question “How May I Know I’m Elect”. Its not “How May I Know I’m Saved?”, but “How May I Know I’m Elect”.
Sadly, we have allowed our Calvinist/Arminian brothers blur salvation and election. If someone believes the reason he is saved is because he is one of God’s elect, then he’s lost. This is what Israel believed. I’m saved because God says I am. I’m saved because I believed/accepted/received what Paul preached…
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (NKJV)….
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures….
Praise our wonderful Savior!
Amen Phillip!
Reading Piper’s description of the process of regeneration makes my heart sink within: “The teaching that I want to try to persuade you is biblical and, therefore, true and precious is that the new birth is the result of the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit preceding and enabling our first act of saving faith.”
It sounds so spiritual, put like that, so warm and cozy, when in reality he is sly declaring that God only loves a very limited number of people, provided atonement for the sin of only those few and intended for all others, without fail, to be hopelessly damned. I would that all who read or repeat this philosophy understand the ugly underbelly of what they so freely cite, the cruel, ugly and tyrannical portrait with which it paints a good and loving God.
Most so-called Calvinists do not get this. They do not understand the ferocity of people’s anger against them, but are assured they are simply being ‘persecuted’ for telling the truth. In reality, they are meeting the natural response of those who are told, ‘God may have heartlessly damned you to hell in eternity past, but I don’t care, as long as I’m in.’ Because that is what your words convey, dear Calvinist.
Compare that with the genuinely true and precious gospel message that draws all who are weary and heavy laden:
God loves you, without a question. The burden of sin separates us from him and from all that he desires for us. He provided an atonement for that sin, even your sin, because he desires that all people turn from wickedness and live. Come, accept his love and forgiveness and abundant gifts, which he so desires to shower upon you. All day long, he holds out his arms, calling you to come.
These are the precious words of life which draw all men to God. They ring with limitless love, power and hope, compared to the futile “If you’re lucky, you might be one of the chosen few who receive God’s favor.”
If Piper had just said…
“The teaching that I want to try to persuade you is biblical and, therefore, true and precious is that the new birth is the result of the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit…..”
….that would have been scriptural. But, being as sly as the Serpent in the Garden, he adds…
“……preceding and enabling our first act of saving faith.”
Just like the Evil One who takes some truth (“you will be like God, knowing good and evil”) and mixes in a lie (“you will not surely die”).
Exactly as it struck me. Why? Why are they so eager to add such a dastardly doctrine to the truly beautiful and precious message of the gospel? Tragic.
Demonic influence. They really believe they are lifting God up.
From the pen of R. C. Sproul…..
“When I began to wrestle with the Professor’s argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching (regeneration precedes faith) was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield – even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.
These GIANTS of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul’s Letter to the Ephesians is this: ‘…even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)’ (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place ‘when we were dead’. With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to GIANTS of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.”
Notice how Sproul mentions these names with such reverence. Augustine! Luther! Calvin! Edwards! You can just hear the “oohhs and aahhs” coming from his audience who bow in humble admiration. Who are “we” to question these GIANTS?
But Sproul saves his best “bully” tactic for last.
“If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to GIANTS of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.”
Now if these folks want to believe “regeneration precedes faith” that’s their prerogative. Free will. But don’t try to tie your “myth” to the teachings of Paul and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Regarding Sproul (from Wikipedia)…
He obtained degrees from Westminster College, Pennsylvania (BA, 1961), Pittsburgh-Xenia Theological Seminary (M.Div, 1964), the Free University of Amsterdam (Drs., 1969), and Whitefield Theological Seminary (PhD, 2001). He taught at numerous colleges and seminaries, including Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando and in Jackson, Mississippi, and Knox Theological Seminary in Ft. Lauderdale.
Now to address Sproul’s errors (and I have no theological training).
Ephesians 2:4-9 (NKJV) in context…..
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
First. The phrase “even when we were dead in trespasses” is not associated with when He “made us alive together with Christ”, but rather with “His great love with which He loved us”. God loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses and sin.
Second. Notice “made alive together with Christ” is the equivalent of “have been saved”. They are synonymous. That’s what the text says. Notice how interchangeable the phrases are in context…
Ephesians 2:4-9 (NKJV) in context…..
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved (made alive together with Christ) through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
We are NOT “made alive together with Christ” because we believe. But we are “made alive together with Christ” AFTER we believe. The guilty criminal (sinner) must first be acquitted/pardoned of his crime (sins) BEFORE he is granted new life (made alive together with Christ). This not only makes basic sense, but is supported by scripture….
Colossians 2:13 (NKJV)….
And you, being dead in your trespasses (guilty) and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him (by grace you have been saved), (due to) having forgiven (pardoned) you all trespasses (thru faith).
Now how clear is that? When we were separated from God because of our sins, God saved us by uniting us to Christ because our sins have been forgiven (pardoned) thru faith. That is precisely what that portion of scripture is saying and aligns perfectly with Ephesians 2:4-9.
Now regarding Jesus’ encounter with Nicodemus. When Jesus said “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” all He is stating is that only children of God will enter into the earthly kingdom. And how does one become a child of God? Only thru faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:26).
Now that is so simple a child could understand it. However, Sproul misses the mark entirely because he has been so badly influenced by what he calls the GIANTS in “church history”.
So, once again, all that schooling. All that reading. All that time studying. All that research. And yet he is wrong. Not even close. Just another man with a degree in philosophy.
God bless, brothers/sisters.
Thank you Philip
I notice a pattern always with Calvinists – which you outline.
It is the same pattern that author Erich von Däniken followed in his book “Chariots of the gods”.
Daniken believed that the angels referenced in scripture were actually aliens visiting earth from other worlds.
But watch the process he follows to convince you that that is taught by scripture!
Before he ever goes to any text in scripture, he puts all his focus on convincing you of his premise.
This consumes a significant portion of the book.
Once he’s got you convinced – then he takes you to scripture texts – and uses them as proof-texts.
But by that time, the reader is already convinced and simply sees aliens in the text the same way one sees a butterfly in an ink-blot.
He can then argue that scripture demands his belief system.
Its called Brainwashing…
“….the process of pressuring someone into adopting radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible means.”
I am not familiar with some of the colleges/seminaries the article listed, but Westminster College and Whitefield Theological Seminary? “Gee, I wonder what they believe (insert sarcasm)?” He might as well of gotten a degree/doctorate in Tiddlywinks. It would have been more useful (and less damaging to the body of Christ).
Now I know folks like Piper and Sproul are (or “were” in the case of Sproul) probably God fearing men and deep down they mean well, but this should be a lesson to all of us. Just pick up your Bibles and spend time with Him (and ask questions. Gobs and gobs of questions). If you don’t see it supported by scripture, challenge it. Walk away from it. And don’t be intimated by someone with a piece of paper hanging on their wall because, most likely, they (like Piper and Sproul) are just regurgitating what they have been taught themselves.
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)…..
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Acts 4:12 (NKJV)…..
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.
Blessings.
I’ve been trying to comprehend why Calvinists are so in love with the sound of their own voices for 40 years.
Ultimately, I think it’s lust. It’s gnostic. To be the revealer of special secret truth. Same with the secret Rapture crowd . They crave the rise they get out of people when told unconventional things.
It’s one thing to have theories It’s quite another to actually *Teach God doesn’t love everyone .
They are false teachers and everything they spew out will be burned as rubbish. This has been the plague of Christianity sine the 1st century. Going beyond what is written to draw disciples after yourself.
Hello James – and welcome to SOT101
Notice that the clay was marred….NOT God marred the clay… God is saying in this passage “let me work you into something good so I can bless you but if you are stubborn and hard then calamity will come.”
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Thank you GraceAdict!
And welcome! :-]
I think Calvinism is a perfect fit for this Young and Restless crowd. Why? It appeals to their upbringing of you are special… you should be the one chosen. No one like you… you are the one to be chosen. It appeals to an inner pride and arrogance…I can honestly say I have not met a humble Calvinist… I am sure they are out there but very hard to find. I have met lots and lots of arrogant…self important..high minded…condescending Calvinists. I think this systematic attracts that type of person. Now they try hard to say TULIP makes them humble…but I have yet to see it.
My experience with Calvinist attitudes is the same.
They are often very inventive making up all sorts of “so called” explanations (which I can understand they need to do) in order to appear biblical.
And I would say the demographics in Calvinism are white Anglo-Saxon male.
Another thing that always seems to be missing from Calvinists exegesis of John 6 is the universal statements that are given throughout it. v. 33: the bread gives life to the world. v. 40: everyone who looks to the son and believes; reminiscent of Ch. 3 conversation with Nicodemus. v. 51: If anyone eats this bread he will live AND again Jesus repeats, “this bread which I will give for the life of the world.”
Now Calvinists may look at this language and say that world means the elect or all kinds of people. They may also say “Well, we believe anyone who eats will live too!” (Even though what is hidden is that anyone is just language for the elect again). There is one part of John 6 that seems to exclude this kind of exegesis, though. Right before Jesus says that “the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world”, he says, “my Father gives YOU the true bread from heaven.” Jesus here is speaking to the unbelieving as well as His disciples. If Calvinism is true, how has God given the bread from heaven to the non-elect? Either God has withheld Jesus’ sacrifice from them, or He has withheld the faith to take and eat the true bread from heaven. Although my view of John 6 is a tad different from Leighton’s, we agree that to take John 6 and make the gospel for a select few is a bad rendering of the text. Jesus seems to be making clear that the invitation is open for all, but few are accepting it.
Steven
“my Father gives YOU the true bread from heaven.” Jesus here is speaking to the unbelieving as well as His disciples. If Calvinism is true, how has God given the bread from heaven to the non-elect?
br.d
Hi Steven and welcome!
Good question and reasonable.
I’m sure however the Calvinists have some kind of answer for this – even though many of their answers eventually break down to being IRRATIONAL. That doesn’t phase them – they simply make-believe the irrational is not irrational – and whatever the imagination comes up with for an answer – is treated as unquestionable truth. :-]
Thanks Steven E and welcome!
Yes….many many verses have to be altered by Calvinists:
John 12:32 “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”….. becomes….
“I will draw all ‘kinds’ of people to myself.”
FOH Posted this one:
“John 12:32 “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”….. becomes….
“I will draw all ‘kinds’ of people to myself.”
———Here is My Response———–:
FOH’s version of paraphrasing the verse sounds like a “Universalist” not a Particular Redemption of the Calvinists.
So… “all kinds of people…” and yet not all people goes to heaven. That is inconsistent. If Christ offered His life for all humanity, then they had been paid already for their sins, but still they are going to be thrown to hell, a double punishment and the sacrifice done by Christ for them is futile and of no effect at all.
FOH
[In Calvinism] “John 12:32 “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”….. becomes….“I will draw all ‘kinds’ of people to myself.”
jtleosala
FOH’s version of paraphrasing the verse sounds like a “Universalist” not a Particular Redemption of the Calvinists.
br.d
JT I would suggest you consider taking an elementary course in rational reasoning.
How you derive “Universalist” out of FOH’s statement is a NON-SEQUITUR.
Here is John Calvin saying the same thing
-quote
We must mark that the Apostle speaks not here of every particular man, but of ALL SORTS…….
FOH uses the term “TYPE” – while Calvin uses the term “SORT” – but they both mean the same thing.
So FOH’s statement is Truth-Telling
Calvin’s god does not draw all people to himself – he only draws ALL SORTS/TYPES of people.
br.d posted this one:
“JT I would suggest you consider taking an elementary course in rational reasoning.”
“How you derive “Universalist” out of FOH’s statement is a NON-SEQUITUR.”
——–Here’s My Response———-
Doing a “nitpicking” as a means to confront has nothing in effect on me. It will just re-activate the old nature that has not yet fully exited within a debater. If one is in disagreement in the “L” of the Calvinists it then, follows that of a Universalists view. That universalist view for me is inconsistent. If Christ really offered His life to all humanity, then all Humanity- their sins had been paid already. But wow… they are still being thrown to hell. Christ has been punished for them already and yet they are still going to be punished the second time. It shows here that Christ’s Death and payment for them is futile and just nonsense.
Piper has been charged here as wrong about John 6:44, but I think Jesus Christ will never be wrong in His statement in that verse. God the father is the one responsible in doing the act of drawing people to Christ.
br.d
JT I would suggest you consider taking an elementary course in rational reasoning.”
“How you derive “Universalist” out of FOH’s statement is a NON-SEQUITUR.”
jtleosala
Doing a “nitpicking” as a means to confront has nothing in effect on me.
br.d
On that logic – when a store clerk makes a mistake and shorts you $5 dollars in change – and you correct them – they can say you are “nitpicking”
You want to talk about something “nonesense” but then you call RATIONAL REASONING “the old nature”
What this shows is that you perceive everything *YOU* think is RATIONAL whether it is or not. :-]
jtleosala
Piper has been charged here as wrong about John 6:44, but I think Jesus Christ will never be wrong in His statement in that verse.
br.d
Here is another huge ERROR – you are equating John Piper with Jesus.
Perhaps John Piper is Jesus re-incarnated for you?
I have news for you – IRRATIONAL is “Missing the Mark” – which means its sin. :-]
FOH posted this one:
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”…
“You accuse me of “paraphrasing” ???”
——-Here’s My Response———
The addition of the second line which you have made to the verse made me say that issue of “paraphrase” . Please review below what you have posted…
John 12:32 “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”….. becomes….
“I will draw all ‘kinds’ of people to myself.”
FOH
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”…
“You accuse me of “paraphrasing” ???”
jtleosala
The addition of the second line which you have made to the verse made me say that issue of “paraphrase” . Please review below what you have posted…
John 12:32 “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”….. becomes….
“I will draw all ‘kinds’ of people to myself.”
br.d
Again JT you should consider taking an elementary course in RATIONAL thinking.
FOH is showing how that is JOHN CALVIN’S interpretation.
So if you call that “paraphrasing” – then John Calvin is the source .
I posted John Calvin’s statement on that for you – I wonder why that didn’t help you get the picture?
br.d posted this one:
“Here is another huge ERROR – you are equating John Piper with Jesus.”
“Perhaps John Piper is Jesus re-incarnated for you?”
——-Here’s My Response——-
It is you who said that quote above not me, and it never came into my mind and I deny that charge directed to me. I guess it could be your joy to paint an argumentum ad hominem to me as your opponent, well… that’s fine. Just take heed with your blood pressure bro.
br.d:
“Here is another huge ERROR – you are equating John Piper with Jesus.”
“Perhaps John Piper is Jesus re-incarnated for you?”
jtleosala
It is you who said that quote above not me, and it never came into my mind and I deny that charge directed to me. I guess it could be your joy to paint an argumentum ad hominem to me as your opponent, well… that’s fine. Just take heed with your blood pressure bro.
br.d
No Ad-Hominem here on my part.
Here is your statement “Piper has been charged here as wrong…..but I think Jesus Christ will never be wrong”
Clearly you are equating Piper with Jesus.
I’m here to analyze your posts.
That’s what the Lord has gifted me for.
Wisdom would suggest you take advantage of what is being provided for you – instead of kicking at the pricks. :-]
Proverbs 4:7
The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
FOH posted this line :
“You cant even hear yourself.”
——–Here’s My Response———
Your comment above directed to me sounds like a Calvinists, a contradiction of what you have espoused now, i.e.: you argue that “man is not too dead” [they can hear, they can reason out, they can decide for themselves] against the “TD” or “TI” of the Calvinists.
We still don’t know today as to FOH’s final dead end destiny. Who knows [but God knows] if the former “trained Calvie’s” end is still Calvinism which he had denounced.
Jtleosala
We still don’t know today as to FOH’s final dead end destiny. Who knows [but God knows] if the former “trained Calvie’s” end is still Calvinism which he had denounced.
br.d
This statement is consistent with Calvinist thinking.
The Calvinist does not know what his -quote “dead end destiny” is.
When the Calvinist reads: “You are a chosen people” – he can calculate that DOES NOT apply to himself – because Calvin’s god DESIGNS the vast majority of people for eternal torment in a lake of fire.
When the Calvinist reads: “Cast them into outer darkness” – he can calculate that DOES apply to himself – because Calvin’s god DESIGNS the vast majority of people for eternal torment in a lake of fire.
Thus it follows: For the Calvinist All of the promises of God in scripture are an UNCERTAIN sound.
Br.d posted this line:
“Thus it follows: For the Calvinist All of the promises of God in scripture are an UNCERTAIN sound.”
———Here;s My Response———
Br.D again made an assertion : “… all of the promises of God in scripture are an uncertain sound”
But, I say NO as a Calvinist. I firmly believe in the promise of a permanent Salvation made by God; freely given to undeserving elect sinners – Israel and Gentile believers in Christ. It sounds loud and clear to me… never an “uncertain sound” as what Br.D asserts.
jtleosala
Br.d posted this line:
“Thus it follows: For the Calvinist All of the promises of God in scripture are an UNCERTAIN sound.”
Br.D again made an assertion : “… all of the promises of God in scripture are an uncertain sound”
br.d
Correction! *FOR THE CALVINIST* all of the promises of God in scripture are an uncertain sound
jtleosala
But, I say NO as a Calvinist. I firmly BELIEVE in the promise of a permanent Salvation made by God; freely given to undeserving elect sinners – Israel and Gentile believers in Christ. It sounds loud and clear to me… never an “uncertain sound” as what Br.D asserts.
br.d
AH! Well done! – you found a technicality – so I will rephrase my statement
For any specific Calvinist – All of the promises of God in scripture are an UNCERTAIN sound – in terms of whether or not they apply to that specific Calvinist.
JTL,
Really? You crack me up! I quoted the exact words of Jesus. (I didn’t “paraphrase”).
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”…
You accuse me of “paraphrasing” ???
Christ is drawing all people to Himself. Some say “no” (that is why He says outside Jerusalem that He wanted to gather them but they would not).
It is only Calvinists who ADD “all kinds” …in order to make it fit.
Man oh man….. this is truly amazing! You add words to the text —-and then accuse the guy who takes the straight text as the “one who is paraphrasing.”
You cant even hear yourself.
It is truly sad when one’s loyalty to men and their traditions is so great that it would inspire one to reject, or more commonly distort, the very words of our savior who died for us. Truly sad.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1. Jesus Christ is saying in the verse that it is the Father who sent Him will be the one responsible to draw people to Christ.
2. The word “unless” gives every reader a guarantee that No one can come to the SON if the Father will not decide to do the act of drawing. Jesus Christ is not lying here and no one can dismantle what Christ have declared in this verse.
3. Why there is a need for the Father to draw them to Christ? The answer is that: they cannot do it for themselves. They are in a hopeless condition and needs to be rescued?
4. Why they can’t do it for themselves? Because they are are in a “spiritually dead” status – the “natural man”, “the fallen man”, the one who is born in the flesh is flesh” – needs to be regenerated first because they are spiritually blind and deaf and had been separated from a Holy God due to their sin. Only God can unblind them and can restore their spiritual hearing.
5. If God will not restore their spiritual blindness and being deaf all of the evangelism efforts being made are just useless.
jtleosala
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1. Jesus Christ is saying in the verse that it is the Father who sent Him will be the one responsible to draw people to Christ.
br.d
All Christianity holds to divine drawing – just not with the GNOSTIC divine spark and “magical potion” found in Calvinism
jtleosala
2. The word “unless” gives every reader a guarantee that No one can come to the SON if the Father will not decide to do the act of drawing. Jesus Christ is not lying here and no one can dismantle what Christ have declared in this verse.
br.d
Who in the world would argue Jesus lies? Its just the Calvinist interpretation of the text that people find FALSE.
jtleosala
3. Why there is a need for the Father to draw them to Christ? The answer is that: they cannot do it for themselves. They are in a hopeless condition and needs to be rescued?
br.d
No Christian argues that the sinner doesn’t need to be rescued.
Its the Calvinists interpretation concerning these things they reject
jtleosala
4. Why they can’t do it for themselves? Because they are are in a “spiritually dead” status – the “natural man”, “the fallen man”, the one who is born in the flesh is flesh” – needs to be regenerated first because they are spiritually blind and deaf and had been separated from a Holy God due to their sin. Only God can unblind them and can restore their spiritual hearing.
br.d
Here is where Calvinism’s DOUBLE-SPEAK starts to become noticeable.
Calvin’s god SPECIFICALLY DESIGNS each person’s particular attributes.
He DESIGNS the MANY specifically for eternal torment in the lake of fire.
He DESIGNS the FEW otherwise.
He could have saved himself a lot of trouble by simply DESIGNING a FEW without sin – and not DESIGNING the rest at all.
jtleosala
5. If God will not restore their spiritual blindness and being deaf all of the evangelism efforts being made are just useless.
br.d
Yes we know – Calvin’s god sets all the houses on fire and then rescues a FEW.
What we have here is a “Good-Evil” deity found in Gnosticism.
br.d writes:
“He could have saved himself a lot of trouble by simply DESIGNING a FEW without sin – and not DESIGNING the rest at all.”
This is huge. On could grant goodness, love and justice to a deterministic God who did not create evil. Your description is of a a super-controlled, robotic creation, but at least it is not cruel or unjust. No one would quibble with such a creation. But the way things are in this world, if God is deterministic and responsible for whatsoever comes to pass, he is, without question, responsible for evil, sin, death and all that is wrong, oppressive, abusive and evil. No one can reasonably deny this.
So, yeah, Calvinists, weave your semantic webs. It’s not that we do not understand your beliefs; most of us who have grappled with them understand more than the typical Calvinist. Once an individual begins to actually think through the ramifications of your system, most will reject your cruel, deceptive, disingenuous, mocking, evil-designing god. As they should.
It seems to me that TSOO has been annoyed by a God who is sovereign and has the capabilities to get all what He wants. Since that no one is superior or above than God, therefore He can do all what He wants. Our response then as a Christian must be in humble worship adoration to the true God who created everything and had extended His mercy towards us Gentile believers.
Reflecting here words that are insulting and degrading, demeaning is not advantageous for the readers
jtleosala
It seems to me that TSOO has been annoyed by a God who is sovereign and has ……etc
br.d
Thank you JT – this is another good example of Calvinism’s *AS-IF* DOUBLE-MINDED thinking
The Calvinist is taught it is DIVINE TRUTH – that everything that comes to pass is attributed to an IMMUTABLE DECREE.
And that Calvin’s god DOES NOT PERMIT anything otherwise come to pass.
And yet the Calvinist then calls that FALSE
By attributing an event to TS00 *AS-IF* it were not a manifestation of the IMMUTABLE DECREE.
Calvinism = *AS-IF* thinking = DOUBLE-MINDED thinking.