Is faith something God effectually (or irresistibly) gives to some people and withholds from everyone else? Calvinists, such as John Piper, believe this is what the Bible teaches. This article will examine the proof texts Piper, and many modern day Calvinists, use to validate their position. Pastor Piper puts it like this,
“Paul is concerned that people were ‘thinking of themselves more highly than they ought to think.’ His final remedy for this pride is to say that not only are spiritual gifts a work of God’s free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts. This means that every possible ground of boasting is taken away. How can we boast if even the qualification for receiving gifts is also a gift?”[1]
Was Paul addressing “Arminians” or “synergistic free will advocates” in Romans 12:3 because he was concerned about them taking credit for their salvation and boasting about their choice to trust in Christ? Or, was Paul addressing believers with various gifts being jealous or boastful due to the kind of gift or role they were given within the body of Christ? Let’s look at the context:
“For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.” (Romans 12:3-8, emphasis added)
It could not be any more clear that Paul is addressing the body of Christ and their various spiritual gifts (prophecy, service, teaching, etc.) and not Christians bragging about their “free will decision” to humbly confess their sin (which is obviously an absurd conclusion). Erroneous proof texting is when a pastor, like Piper, takes a passage out of context which is clearly addressing one error and they apply it as if its addressing someone (i.e. a free will advocate) who disagrees with their particular theological position (i.e. Calvinism), which is obviously about a completely different point than the biblical author was addressing. This is a dangerous practice that can lead to many interpretive errors. Piper continues,
“That’s how important humility is in God’s eyes. This is exactly the same aim of God mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 where Paul stresses that saving faith is a gift: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast.” Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast. Or, as Romans 12:3 says, So that we will not think too highly of ourselves. The last bastion of pride is the belief that we are the originators of our faith.”[2]
Notice how Piper carries over this imposed intention into Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, as if the Apostle is actually addressing “free will advocates” who have been boasting in their choice to humbly confess their sin and trust in Christ. The absurdity of his approach would not even need to be addressed if it was not for the overwhelming number of young and impressionable students who are adopting it. It really is a shockingly inappropriate approach to proper biblical hermeneutics and it surprises me how few mainstream Christian scholars are calling him out for it.
Most commentaries which reflect on the original language reveal that the demonstrative translated ‘this’ in verse 8 is ‘neuter,’ but the noun for ‘faith’ is ‘feminine’. For Piper’s somewhat idiosyncratic view to stand, these two terms should agree in gender, but clearly they do not. Greek scholar, Dr. Dan Wallace, explains, “On a grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either ‘faith” or ‘grace’ is the antecedent of [touto].’[3] Instead, Paul is simply stating that salvation as a whole is obtained by a gift of God.
There are even many Calvinistic leaning exegetes who are unbiased enough to admit that the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8-9 does not support the idea that faith is some kind of effectual gift. In his own commentary of this passage, John Calvin said,
“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.”[4]
So, this is not just a bias against Calvinism, as even John Calvin himself taught that Piper’s view is a “common error.”[5] Piper goes on to say,
“He said to the Philippians, ‘To you it has been given for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake’ (Philippians 1:29). This is why he thanked God and not human resourcefulness for the faith he saw in his churches…”
God does grant us the ability to believe and suffer for His sake. But “granting” or “enabling” faith, or the subsequent suffering that may result, is not the same as “effectually causing it.” Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:11-14), which is sent (or granted) first to the Jew and then the Gentile (Rom. 1:16). In other words, God is enabling faith by bringing the word of faith (His revelation), which is said to go first to Israel and then to “the high-ways and by-ways…the good and bad alike” (see the wedding banquet parable in Matt. 22). Remember, during the time of Paul, the Jews, generally speaking, had grown calloused to God’s revelation, otherwise they might have seen, heard, understood and turned to God, so the apostles took the message of repentance to the Gentiles, who unlike the Jews, “were willing to listen” (see Acts 28:27-28; John 12:39-41; Romans 9-11).
Is Faith is a Gift?
Yes, in one manner of speaking it is, but that does not mean it is an effectual gift given to a relatively small number of people mysteriously chosen for unknown reasons before the world began. We do not have a problem saying that “faith is a gift” in so far as all good things are ultimately from God. Paul asked his readers, “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), which strongly implies that all our abilities, including the ability to make choices, or to trust in God, is given to us by a gracious God.
My next breath is a gift of God, but I am responsible for how I use that gift, right? Likewise, we are “granted” faith or repentance when God brings the means by which we may believe and repent, but we are still responsible for how we use that gift.
So, when the scripture says things like, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18; 20:21) it does not mean “God has effectually caused the Gentiles to repent” but only that God has sent the gospel to the Gentiles so that they too may believe and repent unto new life (John 20:31) and be grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11).
Piper, along with most Calvinists, erroneously assume that for God to receive the maximum glory for giving gifts that He must give them “irresistibly” (in a way that effectually causes the recipients to take and use the gift appropriately). But, since when must a gift be effectually or irresistibly bestowed in order for the giver to get full credit for giving the gift?
If I were to buy laptops for all four of my children and three of them trashed it, or used it inappropriately (while only one of them used it as I intended); am I a less generous or benevolent father? Of course not. My children are responsible for how they used the gift I provided, and that does not impact my benevolence or my character in any way as their loving father who generously provided for their needs.
What would negatively reflect on my character as their father is if you found out I was somehow the “decisive cause” of my children’s inappropriate preferences and choices, which is precisely what Piper teaches in regard to God’s relation to those who rebel against His provisions. In an article titled, “A Beginner’s Guide to ‘Free Will,’” John Piper argues,
…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are.
On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. There are great measures of self-determination, as the Bible often shows, but never is man the ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices. When man’s agency and God’s agency are compared, both are real, but God’s is decisive. Yet — and here’s the mystery that causes so many to stumble — God is always decisive in such a way that man’s agency is real, and his responsibility remains.[6]
I propose that Piper’s view actually downplays God’s glory by presuming effectuality. On the Traditionalist/Provisionist’s view, where God provides the means of salvation for all people, God gets the glory for the gift provided for every person, not just those who use that gift appropriately.
What diminishes God’s glory is suggesting that He is withholding what is necessary for people to believe in Him all the while judging and punishing them for their unbelief. In Mark 6:6 it says that Jesus “marveled because of their unbelief,” and in Luke 19:41 we read about Jesus literally weeping due to the unbelief of the Israelites, and in Mark 16:14 Jesus rebukes his followers for their unbelief — as if they actually had some control over it. Is Jesus being disingenuous in these passages while secretly withholding this so-called effectual gift of faith? Piper’s claim that faith is some kind of an effectual gift from God granted to a preselected few, while being arbitrarily withheld from the masses, makes much of the scripture completely and utterly irrational. For this reason, it should be respectfully rejected and vigorously rebutted.
Below is a broadcast where faith as a gift is discussed in more detail:
[1] John Piper, https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/god-has-allotted-to-each-a-measure-of-faith
[2] John Piper, same as above…
[3] D B Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), 334-5.
[4] John Calvin’s Commentary on Ephesians, https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cal/ephesians-2.html
[5] I recognize that Calvin, in this same commentary, sides with Piper’s soteriological views. That is not the point. The point is that Calvin, unlike Piper, acknowledges that this verse in particular does not grammatically support their position.
[6] John Piper, https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/a-beginners-guide-to-free-will
Wonderful article!
N.T. Wright says
– Paraphrased
“We in the reformation tradition have systematically misread Paul, because we weren’t interested in and we weren’t focuse on – those specific things Paul was interested in and focused on.”
Wright believes the reformed reader has a mechnism in his mind which automatically -quote “blocks out certain bits” of Paul’s words. And if the reformed reader could somehow switch off that mechanism – and then read Paul’s words in Paul’s original language – then those “blocked out bits” would become visible.
Write believes this mechanism is at work within the reformed mind – based on a need to stay aligned with Augustine. Wright believes the tradition of reading scripture this way originated with Luther whose mind was unable to shake off Augustinian influences.
If we look at what Paul is focused on here, we see that he is focused on differences in FUNCTION – using the analogy of different parts of the human body with each having a different purpose and therefore a different function.
But Paul does not hint to the idea that certain parts of the body are dead while other parts are alive. With living parts boasting over being alive – comparing themselves to dead parts. So Paul is focused on GIFTS OF FAITH specific to functionality of living body parts.
I agree – to carrying this beyond what Paul is focused on – in order to use it to canonize Augustinian – is to commit the very fallacy that Paul is writing against in this very text.
Hi BR.D
I had an idea…would it be possible to collaborate with you in writing an article…I want to send it to some family members who are not Calvinist but it would be a way to help them see the dangers and errors. I think you and I see the same things and I think we could put together a helpful piece… These posts here are great and have an important place but comments are also very disjointed and then RH comes along and interjects and before you know it the important topic is dropped and RH becomes the center of attention. His complaints and his rabbit trails become the focus. My idea is if we could work to lay out Calvinism as a Worldview giving a short bit of history then starting with:
1. Universal Divine Causal Determinism (as you put it)
2. Then the offspring of that error within Calvinism such as TULIP and others…
3. Also showing how each of these errors is a horrible attack on the nature of God.
4. Showing what I call the TOOL BOX that Calvinist use to make their system appear legit such as (New Definitions, New Terms, Mystery, False Humility, Bullying, Extrapolations, Confusing Israel with the Church etc…)
Much of these issues have been covered here but to find them again is like a needle in a haystack.
My hope is we could put together something that could help lots of people see and identify the dangers and errors before folks have started to accept some of the false assumptions that are then so hard to get rid of once you have believed them as truth.
If you are willing to do this graceandlove4all AT gmail.com is my email. Blessings
I’ll email you
PARTISANSHIP IDENTITY—VICARIOUS BOASTING—AND HERO WORSHIP
PARTISANSHIP IDENTITY:
Kenneth Burke (1897), an American literary theorist, in Attitudes Toward History, writes:
“It is natural for a man to IDENTIFY himself with the business corporation he serves. This is his birthright, and insofar as he is denied it, he is impoverished and alienated. But insofar as business becomes a ‘corrupt sovereign’, his only salvation is to make himself an IDENTITY, in an alternative corporation. The struggle to establish this alternative corporation is called the struggle for the ‘one big union’.”
Burke is describing the sociological phenomenon of an individual’s re-mapping of PERSONAL IDENTITY. Hence, the drive for UNIONISM – and the process of separating people into parties, so that members of Party-A can boast they are better than members of Party-B.
The unique individual’s urgency here is to escape a perceived INSIGNIFICANT PERSONA, and acquiring a vicarious state of PREEMINENCE BY ASSOCIATION WITH a Guild, Group or Party.
VICARIOUS BOASTING:
Burke clues us, that ‘VICARIOUS BOASTING’ is one of the outward manifestations to look for.
-quote:
“One may note, however, the subtle ways in which IDENTIFICATION SERVES AS BRAGGADOCIO. By it, the modest man can indulge in the most outrageous ‘CORPORATE BOASTING’. He identifies himself with some corporate unit (church, guild, company, lodge, party, team, college, city, nation, etc.) –and by profuse praise of this unit, he PRAISES HIMSELF.
For he OWNS SHARES in the corporate unit—and by RIGGING THE MARKET the value of the stock as a whole, he runs up the value of his personal holdings. And this braggadocio also helps to establish PARTY LOYALTY.
HERO WORSHIP:
Burke continues
-quote:
“The function of VICARIOUS BOASTING leads into the matter of EPIC HEROISM and EUPHEMISTIC VOCABULARIES of motives.
When heroes have been shaped by legend, with the irrelevant or incongruous details of their lives obliterated, and only the most DIVINE ATTRIBUTES expressed, the individual’s COVERT BOASTING (by identification with the hero) need not lead to megalomania (extreme delusion of grandeur)….the legendary hero, is by definition, a superman. HE IS THE FOUNDER OF A LINE!
I leave it to the insightful SOT101 reader here – to discern the observable signs of PARTISANSHIP IDENTITY, VICARIOUS BOASTING, and HERO WORSHIP – as observable characteristics within the Calvinist Guild. :-]
Thank you Leighton this is another great article!!! I’ve not viewed the Podcast yet, but I intend to.
This statement is key!!!
“I propose that Piper’s view actually downplays God’s glory by presuming effectuality.”
This is a resounding Yes Yes & Yes!!! Maybe an example could be of a strong grown man giving a small child who is physically weak an impossible task of picking up a beam. The strong man knows the child can’t accomplish the task, but loves to watch the child’s fear & anxiety of not being able to accomplish the task. The strong man then punishes the child, because he can’t pick up the beam and he loves the power that gives him. All the while claiming he loves this weak child. So either the strong man is lying? Or he finds pleasure in causing stress and anxiety in the child he says he loves? Or the strong man needs psychological help, because he believes he’s justified in punishing this helpless child who he knew could never respond to his request. Our gracious God has revealed His offer of salvation through the finished work of the cross! We aren’t effectually given faith & made to respond or He is confusing us… which I know He is NOT
Br.d I agree with this;
N.T. Wright says
– Paraphrased
“We in the reformation tradition have systematically misread Paul, because we weren’t interested in and we weren’t focuse on – those specific things Paul was interested in and focused on.”
This absolutley reminds me of what the apostle Peter wrote about Paul’s writings;
2 Peter 3:16 NASB — as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
This is true Leighton;
“Piper’s claim that faith is some kind of an effectual gift from God granted to a preselected few, while being arbitrarily withheld from the masses, makes much of the scripture completely and utterly irrational.” Yes, Yes & Yes
& ABSOLUTELY what you say here;
“For this reason, it should be respectfully rejected and vigorously rebutted.”
Not pushed under the carpet and walked around!!!
Again thank you🙏
Reggie
Maybe an example could be of a strong grown man giving a small child who is physically weak an impossible task of picking up a beam.
br.d
I had an analogy that was almost identical to yours Reggie.
A father stands over his 5 year old son holding a pencil out
He commands – if the son does not take the pencil he will throw the son into a fire pit.
The father then purposefully holds the pencil high enough to guarantee the boy can’t reach it.
That way the father can claim – throwing his child into a fire-pit is a just to do.
BrD writes: “The father then purposefully holds the pencil high enough to guarantee the boy can’t reach it.
That way the father can claim – throwing his child into a fire-pit is a just to do.”
My Response :
1. The reality is that : Calvinists says that, God the Father will only offer the pencil to the legitimate beneficiaries of Christ’s death on the cross. He will not offer it to the reprobate. Br D presents in his idea a Father who is insincere of his offer not knowing who are the elect from those reprobates.
2. There is no need for the Father to offer the pencil knowing that they are bound for hell.
jtleosala: writes “Calvinists says that, God the Father will only offer the pencil (salvation) to the legitimate beneficiaries of Christ’s death on the cross. He will not offer it to the reprobate.” …”There is no need for the Father to offer the pencil knowing that they are bound for hell.”
GA: I like how explicit you are about Calvinism…you make no attempt to pretend that God actually loves all of His creation and genuinely offers extends to them an offer. I respect you for owning your position, you very clearly state what we know to be true… I disagree with you but I respect the fact that you do not hide behind deceptive words like most Calvinists do. Thank-you for your clarity even though I disagree with you.
GA,
Yes, any Calvinist that states clearly that “God delights in creating some for Hell” is much more honest about his position.
Most of them use some kind of makes-them-feel-better ideas like “man deserves it” “man chose it” “God loves them also” … but none of those are really true in true-Calvinism.
Agreed FOH!
Like rhutchin with his current “infinite understanding of the attributes of the creature” argument.
A nice little strategy to SMUGGLE in “Foreknowledge via observation” and “Mere Permission” – in yet another camouflaged form.
The good news is – we get to observe all of the SEMANTIC GAMES they are forced to live with
And we get to observe a group who has a LOVE-HATE relationship with a GOOD-EVIL doctrine.
Why wouldn’t everyone want that! :-]
jtleosala
Calvinists says that, God the Father will only offer the pencil to the legitimate beneficiaries of Christ’s death on the cross
br.d
Apparently you’re not familiar with all of the teachings of John Calvin.
He specifically teaches that his god:
-quote “Holds out salvation as a savor of condemnation”
to a
-quote “LARGE MIXTURE” of Calvinists
He deceives these people into believing they are saved temporarily – and he will eventually
– quote “Strike them with greater blindness”.
And since the Calvinist’ church is INVISIBLE – it LOGICALLY follows – there is a LARGE MIXTURE of Calvinists on internet blogs like SOT101 who believe they are qualified to teach sound doctrine – and don’t have enough discernment to know the are TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
Personally I have no interest in putting any stock in the teachings of TOTALLY DEPRAVED Calvinists. :-]
Thank you for that Br.d, it is similar & there is comfort in knowing there are like minded believers! It is good that this site is here to sound an alarm, because many Christians don’t think these issues matter, but really they are misrepresentations & they do matter.. There are others who need this site so they know they’re not alone! Of course as Christians we know we’re not alone He will never leave us, but having others with skin see this systematic doesn’t stand up against the entirety of Scripture is very comforting!
2 Corinthians 13:11 NASB — Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like-minded, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.
Reggie, I totally agree that this site is important, that it is sounding an alarm, and that most Christians don’t think these issues matter. Our wonderful church has been taken over by a strong, dogmatic Calvinist who “manipulates” people into agreeing with him (or at least into not vocally disagreeing) by saying things like “Humble people accept predestination. It’s clearly taught in the Bible, so we have to believe it. You don’t have to like it or understand it, but you do have to accept it. Because God said it.”
It makes me sick. And just a couple days ago, we resigned our church membership because of his dogmatic theology. But almost no one else seems to be questioning him. They are not checking Scripture themselves to see if he is right.
I wish they would find a site like this, which gives plenty of biblical support to disprove Calvinism. So thank you to Leighton for being willing to sound the alarm against this insideous, invasive, destructive theology. (I am trying to do that too at https://mycrazyfaith.blogspot.com and https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com.)
Great post heather!
If I might just add – something honest Christians are not expecting with Calvinists because of how dogmatic they *APPEAR*.
What they met out with one hand – they sneak back with the other.
That is the tell-tale sign that much of it is a well played masquerade.
When the hidden motivation is a need for preeminence – spiritual pride always wears a mask of spiritual humility.
And a man-made theology needs to present itself as “Bible based” in order to APPEAR legitimate.
But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be clearly seen what is truly wrought in God. John 3:21
I thank the Lord for the light – we have here at SOT101.
Hi Heather I’m really sorry about your church home I’m sure that is not easy!!😔 your not alone!!! Sadly to me this systematic looks like a goliath at times, but it is soooo encouraging to hear how your speaking up for the recognizable Goodness of our God. It is so sad when people take a (they) sources word for what God’s Word reveals!!!! maybe they find comfort in trusting a person who they can see☹ Of course there is comfort when God gives us like minded believers, but ultimately I trust as I’m sure you do our hope is in Him and His Word and there is No deceit in Him🌻 (I’m adopting the sunflower as the provisionist flower😄) but no joke calvinism is heartbreaking to me for many reasons, so as Leighton said in his video of leaving this systematic here we stand we can do no other,… (because we care for the harmony of the Scriptures & what logically in the end this systematic paints God to look like to a hurting world)
Hi Heather,
So sorry for the pain this is causing but that is the M.O. of Calvinism.
-Strong assertions with “out of context proof text”
-Redefine words so that the Bible is made to agree with TULIP – They Use our vocabulary but a different dictionary.
-Introduce/Invent New Terms so they can smuggle in additional extra-biblical concepts
-Cover over the contradictions with an appeal to “Mystery,Paradox,Tension”
– Pious confusion- Claim that true humility will swallow this even if it does not make sense.
-Reformer Reverence, Claim they couldn’t have had anything wrong especially John Calvin…their writings are valued as if scripture
-Since it is a historical belief 400 yrs old it must be true because of how old it is. I remind them lies go all the way back to Eden.
-If these tactics fail then they attack calling you names. They have a host of names they will hurl your way..
So glad you have been able to come out from under their oppression…Believe me it is an oppressive system full of self-righteous pride and arrogance. Because of the way the systematic is, it also cultivates insecurity even in the lives of the saved. I heard John Piper on 3 different occasions say that the Number 1 question he received during his 33 years of being a pastor was: “How can I have assurance?” — Not in the least bit surprising to me… TULIP makes it hard for them to ever know if they are really one of the Elect and if They are doing enough to meet the P… and just maybe their faith is a spurious Faith and not a Saving Faith.
Some are trapped in this twisted system through ignorance and being deceived by others, while another group is doing the deceiving… as has already been pointed out elsewhere on this site Calvinism has it’s roots in Gnosticism and Stoicism. This of course lends itself to the pride of believing they are the only ones selected to know the deeper things.
2Ti 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
2Ti 3:13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Keep your nose in the WORD don’t let their intimidation get to you…Keep looking to the God you know…Not the God they are trying to paint.. The Word Not Calvin. The Word NOT Piper or JMac or Carson or Pink or Grudem.
Thank you for addressing this topic!
Such clarity!!!
“So, when the scripture says things like, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18; 20:21) it does not mean “God has effectually caused the Gentiles to repent” but only that God has sent the gospel to the Gentiles so that they too may believe and repent unto new life (John 20:31) and be grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11).”
“Most commentaries which reflect on the original language reveal that the demonstrative translated ‘this’ in verse 8 is ‘neuter,’ but the noun for ‘faith’ is ‘feminine’. For Piper’s somewhat idiosyncratic view to stand, these two terms should agree in gender, but clearly they do not. Greek scholar, Dr. Dan Wallace, explains, “On a grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either ‘faith” or ‘grace’ is the antecedent of [touto].’[3] Instead, Paul is simply stating that salvation as a whole is obtained by a gift of God.”
THIS SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO PUT THIS TOPIC TO REST!
John Calvin said,
“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.”[4″
WOW!
Wonderful post Clare!
You do your homework! :-]
Thank you!
lol, But I dare not take the credit!…I was just quoting the bits that stood out to me from the article! (blush blush) 🙂
I don’t think that faith is given or a gift. I think that grace is a gift to all humanity from God in the form of proper cognitive faculties – rational faculties to assess our moral experiences and come to conclusions about right & wrong, free will to choose between right and wrong, provision of moral laws (which includes Law, prophets & gospel) and provision of Holy Spirit to the seekers. But it becomes effective when humans use their reason and free will to choose good and right and God’s calling. Faith to me is trust in something we have enough reason to be true. It is not a gift, it is a choice we make, in my view.
Thank you Scott
God using the faculties that each person already has – limited though they may be – surely looks like the principle Jesus follows in all of the healing miracles. These are obviously examples of the power of the Holy Spirit bringing a form of physical redemption to the individual. And there is nothing in the texts that indicate God has to infuse the individual with a measure of faith they don’t already have in order for them to be healed.
Leighton….. this is so true…
“What diminishes God’s glory is suggesting that He is withholding what is necessary for people to believe in Him all the while judging and punishing them for their unbelief.”
And yes…. why does Christ “marvel because of their unbelief”?
And yes…. why does Christ weep about their unbelief?
And yes …. why does Christ rebukes his followers for their unbelief?
And another one for you…. why does Jesus marvel (again) AT faith “When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turning to the crowd that followed him, said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.” Luke 7:9 (Calvinist ESV).
Jesus is marveling (amazed) and is saying that He “found” this faith.
None of these make any sense in the Piper model.
Truly God gets more (not less!) glory by providing a way of escape to all people and by being willing to accept their rejection of Him! After all, one of the key descriptions of Christ is “despised and rejected” so we know that God can handle that….for His glory.
Calvinism: To most people the offer is not extended and to those few to whom it is extended, it cannot be refused.
What in the world is glorious about that?
Nice Post FOH!
FOH After all, one of the key descriptions of Christ is “despised and rejected” so we know that God can handle that….for His glory.
Reggie great point!!!!!!!
A further thought on the Isaiah 53 statement that Christ was “despised and rejected.”
In the Calvinist model, He can be despised….because if Total Depravity is true He will be despised.
But rejected?
Someone makes an offer on a house you are selling, you can accept or reject it.
Someone visits your house and then leaves…. you cannot “reject” their offer. They did not make one.
The governor offers a pardon to an inmate. The inmate can accept or reject it. But if no offer is made, he cannot “reject” it.
In Calvinism…. Christ never offers Himself to the “non-elect”. And any offer God makes (to the “elect”) is irresistible.
So, in Calvinism, Christ is NOT “rejected”. (1) He cannot be rejected by those to whom He is really offered (irresistible); (2) He is not even offering to the rest (so it cannot be said that they are rejecting Him).
FOH
So, in Calvinism, Christ is NOT “rejected”.
(1) He cannot be rejected by those to whom He is really offered (irresistible);
(2) He is not even offering to the rest (so it cannot be said that they are rejecting Him).
br.d
This is where Calvinism’s *AS-IF* thinking pattern comes into play.
Christ did not die for the NON-elect – *AS-IF* he did.
Effectual Salvation is not offered to the NON-elect *AS-IF* it is.
I feel sorry for Calvinists
Their system has them REJECTING certain things as heretical
Forcing them to SNEAK those very things back into their system in camouflaged form.
Great Point !
In Calvinism…. Christ never offers Himself to the “non-elect”. And any offer God makes (to the “elect”) is irresistible.
Christ is preached indiscriminately by Calvinist and Non-Calvinist ministers of the Gospel, so in that sense Christ is offered to the Non-Elect.
Mark 16:15 – Mark 16:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
” And any offer God makes (to the “elect”) is irresistible. ”
My response Kevin
This is just a slight misunderstanding of Calvinism. In the Christian Calvinism the Saving Gospel of Christ can be preached to those who may be of the elect in Christ Jesus before time began (Ephesians 1:4) and not be drawn by the almighty power of God the Holy Spirit in intimate connection with the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. It may not be his or her time in history to experience the graciousness of God’s salvation in Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:6 – For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
It is more than LFW understanding the historical knowledge of how to be saved from Christ has accomplished on the Cross.
Now God the Holy Spirit is powerfully involved as we read in 2 Corinthians 4:6 -The very God who said, Let there be light, MADE HIS LIGHT SHINE IN OUR HEARTS TO GIVE US THE LIGHT OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST.
The Gospel can have two different affects on people that is not really talked about on here. When the minister of the Saving Gospel of Christ preaches it is…..
2 Corinthians 2:16 – To the one, we are an odor of death and demise; to the other, a fragrance that brings life. And who is qualified for such a task?
1 Peter 2:7 – Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,”
1 Peter 2:8 – and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
To some (which I do not know who they are) hear the Saving Gospel of Christ it is a ODOR OF DEATH and DEMISE, it is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, so in due time they will stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were APPOINTED OR DESTINED!!
To others it is a fragrance that will bring life.
I am afraid that you just proved my point.
You said that the non-elect were appointed or destined to that (“non-elect-ness”).
So…according to Calvinism they are not rejecting Christ— He was never offered to them!
And according to Calvinism the elect cannot reject Christ.
So Calvinism makes a mockery of the many verses that talk about people rejecting Christ. Unless of you course you mean…
“He was despised and rejected by all those who God made to despise and reject Him.”
But again….for the hundredth time…what is the point of any such idea?
God could have made a much shorter Bible “1:1, Everything you do is exactly what you were programmed to do.”
Why all of these verses (the whole Bible in fact!) that make it sound like man is choosing anything?
Kevin
In Calvinism…. Christ never offers Himself to the “non-elect”. And any offer God makes (to the “elect”) is irresistible.
br.d
Yes – this would be consistent with a THEOS who designs the vast majority of his creatures for eternal torment in a lake of fire.
As John Calvin says
-quote
“They are doomed from the womb”
Kevin
Christ is preached indiscriminately by Calvinist and Non-Calvinist ministers of the Gospel,
br.d
If we say we have no sin – we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
So to claim that ministers treat everyone “indiscriminately” is a claim that approaches boasting of the flesh.
Personally I wouldn’t put any trust in anyone’s flesh.
Kevin
so in that sense Christ is offered to the Non-Elect.
br,d
However the Non-Calvinist can present the gift of Christ without reservation
And its really dishonest for Calvinists to mislead people by not telling them the truth.
That in Calvinism the vast majority of souls are DESIGNED for eternal torment in the lake of fire.
Kevin
” And any offer God makes (to the “elect”) is irresistible. ”
br.d
Actually this is true – in two cases.
The offer of eternal torment in a lake of fire to the “MANY” is irresistible
And the offer of salvation to the “FEW” is also irresistible.
Kevin
It is more than LFW understanding the historical knowledge of how to be saved from Christ has accomplished on the Cross.
br.d
Its unclear what this statement is supposed to mean.
Kevin
The Gospel can have two different affects on people that is not really talked about on here. When the minister of the Saving Gospel of Christ preaches it is…..
br.d
Well – in Universal Divine Causal Determinism – its FALSE to say the “Gospel” is having an effect on a person.
That language infers some form of “mere” permission – which doesn’t exist in Calvinism.
In Universal Divine Causal Determinism – it is the DECREE which has the effect on the person.
Kevin
1 Peter 2:7 – Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,”
br.d
Well this “disobedience” would be to the ENUNCIATED will
Which in such case functions as a FALSE representation of the SECRET will.
Remember it is impossible for the creature to disobey the SECRET will.
Kevin
1 Peter 2:8 – and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
br.d
Well – in Universal Divine Causal Determinism – the person is really not stumbling at the rock of offense – because that would infer “mere” permission – which doesn’t exist in Calvinism.
The person is simply divinely CAUSED to stumble – and not permitted to do otherwise.
Brd.
I like when you break down a statement point by point…. it’s so baffling how much need there is to prove calvin’s theology still holds merit… This system holds many of God’s attributes at a very high level, but their lack of seeing His love is astonishing to me!!! Faith hope and love remain hmm what is the greatestone?? the one calvinist leave out for most all of God’s creation… I’m hoping this is a nearsighted view on their part and over time their vision will improve🤔 I enjoy reading when I’m able thank you.
Thanks BR.D and Reggie,
Under Calvinism – God is the first and foremost hater “God hates the non-elect before he creates him, God hates him before he is born or has done anything to merit hating- under Calvinism God wants to hate more than He wants to love that is why by far the vast majority of people are purposefully irresistibly designed FOR being the objects of that eternal hatred. These have never been loved by their hateful creator and never were intended to be objects of God’s Love, they were ALWAYS intended to be objects of Eternal Hatred” That is the god of Calvinism praise God it is not the GOD of the Bible. Calvinism distorts the image of Holy Loving God. It is what satan has done since the garden of eden…portray God as something other than what He really is.
I absolutely agree with you GraceAdict and I’m so glad the One true God’s love is genuine ie. Authentic and unconditional where is the need for the cross without love & where is the power in the cross if it really needs extra power on top of it.
Thank you very much Reggie for your kind words!
You are very much appreciated!!
From my experience, Calvinists really don’t consistently embrace many of the doctrinal distinctions they boldly proclaim.
They make a lot of very high minded proclamations about sovereignty, rejecting Libertarian Freedom etc.
But when you look under the hood what you find they do a lot cherry picking.
They can’t fully live with much of what they claim.
And they can’t fully live without many of the things they claim to reject.
So they end up with a mixture of cherry-picked things they claim to embrace and things they claim to reject.
Take John Calvin’s rejection of “mere” permission for example.
I don’t know any Calvinist who – claiming to reject it – won’t invent a half dozen ways to SMUGGLE it back – in camouflaged form.
Many of them believe they reject Libertarian Freedom
And yet they perceive themselves as making their own choices between TRUTH and FALSE
And the ability to do that is only logically coherent as a Libertarian function.
I think they are taught to blindly memorize talking-points without examining them for contradictions.
And their minds are conditioned to refuse to face contradictions that are right in front of them.
They remind me of the person who believes in solipsism – while wondering why there aren’t more solipsists. :-]
BR.D writes
Well – in Universal Divine Causal Determinism – its FALSE to say the “Gospel” is having an effect on a person.
That language infers some form of “mere” permission – which doesn’t exist in Calvinism.
In Universal Divine Causal Determinism – it is the DECREE which has the effect on the person.
GA: Agreed….everything else is just a play act or slight of hand to misdirect the naive observer into thinking that it is not the decree alone that has the effect on the person.
“everything else is just a play act or slight of hand to misdirect the naive observer into thinking ….”
IF Calvinism were true the ultimate “play act” would be Paul saying he “persuades men” “reasons with men” ….and that he is”all things to all men that he might win some.”
If it is not offered to the non-elect and “irresistible” to the elect then Paul’s words are just non-nonsensical … to state that he actually “reasons” with “dead men.”
FOH – I think your absolutely right!
The reason Calvinists spend 99% of their time putting a benevolent spin on Calvinism is because they internally know – if they don’t Calvinism will go the way of the dinosaur.
Agreed GraceAdict.
Even Calvinist Dr. Oliver Crisp acknowledges that the Calvinist appeal to secondary means as the cause of sin and evil are simply trying to take Calvin’s god out of the storyline. It’s really a form of MAGICAL thinking.
BRD you keep going back to Calvin and the majority of mankind. Could you kindly Sir show me where to find this.
As John Calvin says
-quote
“They are doomed from the womb”
So BRD you are not saying that the God of Heaven who has eternal perfect infinite knowledge does not know that there are a number that you and I can not count that are as you always say “doomed from the womb” If you deny this I am not sure I can believe you. Because even with LFW you can we do not know what is going to in other countries, but you also do not know that most of mankind is being saved either. That is an argument from silence and must be rejected.
I think if people were being saved by the millions or as Pentecostals as you believe in revivals were thousands upon thousands can be saved we would be hearing about it. That is what Calvin said. In the end I do not know how many will be saved. I am Postmil in my eschatology BRD. Premil Dispensationalism started around the 1830’s and makes it new, recent and suspect. I believe it to be hogwash.
br,d
However the Non-Calvinist can present the gift of Christ without reservation
And its really dishonest for Calvinists to mislead people by not telling them the truth.
That in Calvinism the vast majority of souls are DESIGNED for eternal torment in the lake of fire.
Kevin
This is something you do not even know the answer to. I know I do not look to Calvin for the answer. As a matter a fact there seems to be this idea that the institutes is the Bible of the Calvinists. False it is not. I am Postmil. Most will be saved at the end of time.
In Postmil we believe at the end of time the majority of mankind we be saved as Jesus gave the command to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations because all power in Heaven and Earth had been given unto him. I cannot teach the whole Doctrine of Postmil here but there are many Calvinist who believe this way and I am sorry to tell ya Calvin was not one of them.
br.d
If we say we have no sin – we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
So to claim that ministers treat everyone “indiscriminately” is a claim that approaches boasting of the flesh.
Personally I wouldn’t put any trust in anyone’s flesh.
How many times do we have to tell you all respectfully we do not believe every word that Calvin has said. He is just a man.
I can only say for as much as you have helped me with determinism I completely deny your answer here. I believe it to be one of your weakest. We are to preach the gospel to all indiscriminately. Do you think ministers are to go out and say well this one is saved and this one is not. So I only have to preach to this one. No difference than the Calvinist Minister when it comes to the elect. He has no idea. He preaches to sinners and calls all to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.
BRD
” And any offer God makes (to the “elect”) is irresistible. ”
Kevin
You copied and pasted the quote above and put my name above it. I did not make that quote. I actually refuted that quote as I declare it to be false. So you might want to try again BRD.
Kevin
It is more than LFW understanding the historical knowledge of how to be saved from Christ has accomplished on the Cross.
br.d
Its unclear what this statement is supposed to mean.
Kevin into account the verse I quoted right before that statement BRD. I guess I need to do a better job at connecting my thoughts instead of just thinking you will get it. I know tying makes it hard. But the verse again below shows the supernatural power of God of our Salvation.
2 Corinthians 4:6 – For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
I could also refute Dr. Flowers “Double Blind-Fold” Fallacy from this Chapter and Ephesians 2 which I will eventually.
br,d
However the Non-Calvinist can present the gift of Christ without reservation
And its really dishonest for Calvinists to mislead people by not telling them the truth.
That in Calvinism the vast majority of souls are DESIGNED for eternal torment in the lake of fire.
Kevin
BRD, I have come to respect you very much. But this is a dishonest statement that needs to be re-tracted by you immediately. You think every Calvinist, some call themselves Reformed, (yes there are differences I have heard someone on here say there is not)
There are so many Postmil Christian Calvinist who believe in the success of the Gospel and those God has Elected in Christ from all eternity to be Predestined to be saved in time and History. Revelation says it will be a number so large that no one count or number.
So what. Calvin said it. I am not really interested in that and you cannot force me to believe everything Calvin has taught. Respectfully BRD. You mention this a lot and it seems you think I have to believe it. I have LFW and the right to choose otherwise remember or do you think I am determined to only believe what Calvin taught. From now on I am Reformed 🙂
Kevin
The Gospel can have two different affects on people that is not really talked about on here. When the minister of the Saving Gospel of Christ preaches it is…..
br.d
Well – in Universal Divine Causal Determinism – its FALSE to say the “Gospel” is having an effect on a person.
That language infers some form of “mere” permission – which doesn’t exist in Calvinism.
In Universal Divine Causal Determinism – it is the DECREE which has the effect on the person.
Kevin
Well BRD respectfully because of Total Inability and Moral Inability I stand strongly with Divine Causal Determinism. Man would never come to Christ whom he hates and is hostile to. This wicked sinner. Vocabulary you guys do not seem to even though it is found within the word of God. The Decree once again does not cause anything. It is agents and the preaching of the Gospel that was determined by the Decree BRD.
br.d
Well this “disobedience” would be to the ENUNCIATED will
Which in such case functions as a FALSE representation of the SECRET will.
Remember it is impossible for the creature to disobey the SECRET will.
Kevin
1 Peter 2:8 – and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
2 Corinthians 2:16 – To the one, we are an odor of death and demise; to the other, a fragrance that brings life. And who is qualified for such a task?
1 Peter 2:7 – Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,”
1 Peter 2:8 – and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
To some (which I do not know who they are) hear the Saving Gospel of Christ it is a ODOR OF DEATH and DEMISE, it is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, so in due time they will stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were APPOINTED OR DESTINED!!
To others it is a fragrance that will bring life.
Kevin
Your points just do not come though here as strong BRD. The word of God says it is what they were “appointed to” That being disobedient to the Word. And the Gospel is to some who here it and odor of death and demise.
Your philosophy may convince me eventually but you have the almighty word of God to overcome that you are putting your own little spine on. Just let it say what it says. I know it goes counter to what you believe. You even believe that real genuine Christians can lose their Salvation. You are a Pentecostal right? What kind of Savior is that? “this is the will of my Father, that all He has given me, I will lose none, but raise them up on the last day.
God bless BRD. Remember we are just discussing. I went to that mail box today because I chose to.
Kevin
Could you kindly Sir show me where to find this.
As John Calvin says
-quote
“They are doomed from the womb”
br.d
….individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
Kevin
So BRD you are not saying that the God of Heaven who has eternal perfect infinite knowledge does not know that there are a number that you and I can not count that are as you always say “doomed from the womb” If you deny this I am not sure I can believe you. Because even with LFW you can we do not know what is going to in other countries, but you also do not know that most of mankind is being saved either. That is an argument from silence and must be rejected.
br.d
If I understand what you are saying here – it seems like you are making two points.
Firstly – divine infinite knowledge of the eternal state of humans in Theological Determinism – is determined not by looking into the future and learning what eternal destiny people will have – but by determining it for each person. And that is why Calvin says people are doomed from the womb. This lines up also with the interpretation of the divine potter who designs vessels fit for destruction.
Your second point seems to be focused on the proportions of those whose eternal destinies are one or the other.
Eternal life – vs eternal torment.
John Calvin derives a sense of the proportions from his interpretation of the text of scripture which refer to the “Many” vs the “Few”.
He sees this as applicable to the church also – by combining it with his interpretation of the wheat and the chaff.
So for Calvin the vast majority of the human population is designed for eternal torment – and the vast majority of the church also.
Kevin
I think if people were being saved by the millions or as Pentecostals as you believe in revivals were thousands upon thousands can be saved we would be hearing about it. That is what Calvin said. In the end I do not know how many will be saved. I am Postmil in my eschatology BRD. Premil Dispensationalism started around the 1830’s and makes it new, recent and suspect. I believe it to be hogwash.
br.d
Well it does say there is a multitude, which no man could number standing before the throne.
So I would agree we cannot know what that number would be.
And like yourself – I don’t put much stock in Dispensationalism.
br,d
However the Non-Calvinist can present the gift of Christ without reservation
And its really dishonest for Calvinists to mislead people by not telling them the truth.
That in Calvinism the vast majority of souls are DESIGNED for eternal torment in the lake of fire.
Kevin
This is something you do not even know the answer to. I know I do not look to Calvin for the answer. As a matter a fact there seems to be this idea that the institutes is the Bible of the Calvinists. False it is not. I am Postmil. Most will be saved at the end of time.
br.d
When I made that statement it was in contrast to the general idea held by Calvinists that when then present the gospel they have a general idea that the person they are ministering to may not be elect.
I can see how Calvinists would take different positions on that though.
One of the other Calvinist here for example is very insistent that the gospel is ministered to the non-elect as a form of judgment.
And the Calvinist who has that in mind doesn’t know if his ministering the gospel to any individual is for that reason.
But the non-Calvinist believes that there is a divine will for all men to be saved.
Kevin
We are to preach the gospel to all indiscriminately. Do you think ministers are to go out and say well this one is saved and this one is not. So I only have to preach to this one. No difference than the Calvinist Minister when it comes to the elect. He has no idea. He preaches to sinners and calls all to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.
br.d
All I was saying in this topic was that all ministers are human.
And is it possible for a human to do anything totally indiscriminately?
Kevin
You copied and pasted the quote above and put my name above it. I did not make that quote. I actually refuted that quote as I declare it to be false. So you might want to try again BRD.
br.d
Sorry – I must have thought it was your statement.
br,d
And its really dishonest for Calvinists to mislead people by not telling them the truth.
That in Calvinism the vast majority of souls are DESIGNED for eternal torment in the lake of fire.
Kevin
BRD, I have come to respect you very much. But this is a dishonest statement that needs to be re-tracted by you immediately. You think every Calvinist, some call themselves Reformed, (yes there are differences I have heard someone on here say there is not)
br.d
If a Calvinist believes in Calvin’s teaching that the vast majority of humans are designed for eternal torment – why wouldn’t that Calvinist speak the whole truth when speaking to the lost about salvation?
Kevin
So what. Calvin said it. I am not really interested in that and you cannot force me to believe everything Calvin has taught. Respectfully BRD. You mention this a lot and it seems you think I have to believe it. I have LFW and the right to choose otherwise remember or do you think I am determined to only believe what Calvin taught. From now on I am Reformed 🙂
br.d
Its hard to know then how to respond since some statements appear to be very much in line with Calvin.
Kevin
Well BRD respectfully because of Total Inability and Moral Inability I stand strongly with Divine Causal Determinism. Man would never come to Christ whom he hates and is hostile to. This wicked sinner. Vocabulary you guys do not seem to even though it is found within the word of God. The Decree once again does not cause anything. It is agents and the preaching of the Gospel that was determined by the Decree BRD.
br.d
Actually Calvinism is called “Universal Causal Divine Determinism” because the decree is in fact causal.
Determinism entails the principle of cause and effect.
Everything that comes to pass is the consequence of a decree.
Thus the decree is the cause of everything that comes to pass.
Kevin
1 Peter 2:8 – and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
br.d
If one interprets this verse without Theological Determinism – then it makes sense that a person stumbles from the rock of offense.
If one interprets this verse with Theological Determinism – then the stumbling is caused by a decree.
The other verses work similarly.
Kevin
Your philosophy may convince me eventually but you have the almighty word of God to overcome
br.d
Actually philosophy is at work with everyone.
I may be able to convince myself that my interpretation of scripture is not affected by philosophy.
But that is actually not humanly possible.
Kevin
You even believe that real genuine Christians can lose their Salvation.
br.d
I take the warning verses in scripture at face value.
Kevin
You are a Pentecostal right? What kind of Savior is that? “this is the will of my Father, that all He has given me, I will lose none, but raise them up on the last day.
br.d
Well we could follow that model of thinking by taking the verse that says “He couldn’t do many mighty works there because of their unbelief” And we could ask the same question – by asking “what kind of miracle worker is that?”
Kevin
God bless BRD. Remember we are just discussing. I went to that mail box today because I chose to.
br.d
Thanks Kevin – and you as well! :-]
Ok BRD, good Post. I see I still have some prayer, study and research to do. This one made me realize that. Thanks again,
I know you are just mentioning Calvin, but I believe the majority of humanity will be saved at the end of time. Postmil. You should check it out.
I will respond in greater detail later.
Thank you so much for all the teachings here on Soteriology 101, it has been a wonderful tool for my wife and myself to strengthen our faith and stay true to what Scripture teach. I have learned so much. Please keep on sharing and we are praying for you to stay on the strait and narrow!
Kind Regards
Riaan and Lourie Kloppers
Hermanus, South Africa
Thank you for your thoughtful and encouraging post Riaan!!
Blessings!
Hi Dr. Flowers!
First of all, thank you very much for all your efforts in order to proportionate an alternative interpretation for a lot of very complex biblical passages. It has been a great help for me in order to try to understand some texts that could be used by my Calvinistic brothers. In fact, I’m trying to decide and clarify what truly Scriptures teaches about salvation and faith.
It always has been always strange to me to hear that faith is a gift from God in a Calvinistic way (where you can’t do nothing to believe and it is all up to God). Nevertheless, I want you to ask you what it is your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3:5-7: “What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.” (ESV). Does not teach this text that in ultimate terms faith and believe in God dependes on Him? Because, ultimately, interpreting in this sense the text, He gives the growth of the faith, no matter how much we preach. Also, the first part, when says “as the Lord assigned to each”, does not that trying to say that the Lord not only permit or make possible to believe in Him, but that He assigns faith to the person?
However, the NIV version it is a little bit different and says that “the Lord has assigned to each his task”, so that phrase would not be about faith but tasks/roles?
Thank you so much for your answer. As I said before I’m trying to learn what truly teaches the Scriptures and not merely human systems (Calvinism/Arminianism).
God bless you! Greetings from Chile, South America.
Welcome Miguel! You will have a better opportunity contacting Leighton with your question on his FB Soteriology101 page.
Here’s my response to your question. Hope it helps. God does bring the increase… through faith. It’s grace through faith… so faith must be in place first for saving grace to go through it.
Light then Faith then Life!
Jhn 1:9, 12 NKJV – 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world…. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Jhn 12:36 NKJV – “While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”
Jhn 20:31 NKJV – but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Gal 3:26 NKJV – For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
1Pe 1:23, 25 NKJV – having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, … Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
Reformed theology posits a fake “regeneration” that makes no-one immediately a child of God, nor does it immediately give everlasting life! What kind of birth does not make one a child or give life? Very silly… besides being a clear rejection and twisting of clear Scripture teaching.
For the Calvinist regeneration is kinda like a drug that had been before willfully refused by the woman that a man offered it to, along with his proposal of marriage to her… but then he slips it into her drink without her knowing and she immediately accepts his next proposal of marriage.
Now does that sound like true love? And how can you call a drugged woman’s “yes” her “personal responsibility” even though she was unable to do other because of a change the “drug” made in her? When it was given to her, she was still firmly rejecting the one making the proposal who was slipping her the drug without her understanding.
I see no personal willing acceptance of that woman… nor do I see love in the one who caused the change in her instantly upon her using that drug.
Miguel:
Thanks for joining. I am not sure if Leighton will get back to you but here is a start. I will let someone else talk about what Paul could mean by that. But how about this:
Paul says he “convinces” “persuades” “reasons with” men in the Scripture. Surely there are more verses in that direction…..stating Paul’s part and the hearer’s part.
Look what he says here:
“I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.”
“to win as many as possible.” [even Paul doesnt believe this is a fix number…. “as many as possible.” That does not sound one bit like he is supporting the idea that God has chosen before time how many will be saved.]
“so as to win those under the law.”
“so as to win those not having the law.”
“so that by all possible means I might save some.”
“by all possible means”
I, I, I (says Paul)
“I might win some.”
He is saying that all of his efforts make a difference “as many as possible” “so as to win” “by all possible means.”
Paul does not even mention the Holy Spirit or the Doctrines of Grace in any of these passages….. He ONLY mentions what he is doing.
Always the 1-2 “Calvinist-sounding verses ” (for which there is an alternative interpretation) are more important than the dozens of others? Keep asking!!
Great statement: “We do not have a problem saying that “faith is a gift” in so far as all good things are ultimately from God. Paul asked his readers, “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), which strongly implies that all our abilities, including the ability to make choices, or to trust in God, is given to us by a gracious God.”
I would add that our lives are a gift each and every breath you take is a gift from God. The big question is “Are you using it in a way that glorifies God?”
The question is NOT do some people have faith and others Do NOT have faith. Everyone has faith…the only question is what is the OBJECT of your Faith. Faith,Believe and Trust are virtually the same thing. We can believe a lie or believe the truth…we can have faith in a lie or have faith in the truth. The BIG question is the OBJECT of my Faith God and what He has said or is it something else? Notice in the verses below…the exact same word Believe is used in the context of Believing a lie or Believing the Truth so you see the absence of Faith/the ability to Believe is not the issue the Issue is always the OBJECT of our Faith.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe a lie
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
v11 says believe a lie
v12 says believe the truth — The lack of Faith is not the issue only the OBJECT of ones Faith.
I posted this on another string, but it did not go and would not let me re-try. So again here:
Mr X has faith in something (Evolutionary accidents, Islam, Mormonism, Catholicism, etc).
Johnny Baptist presents the Gospel to him (which includes the line “Christ died for you” —- included everywhere by MacArthur and Piper).
Mr X says ….. that is stupid and foolishness.
Mrs X (always the wiser gender!) says “Let’s just go with Johnny and Ethel Baptist to church next week on Father’s Day.”
Mr X sits in the pew and say this is foolishness.
Two guys he knows from his bowling league see him and ask him to a Dudes’ Night Bowl Bible Study.
Mr X attends and bowls and hears a little bit of Bible study, which is foolishness (but he does know the cool dude teaching the study….so… he’s curious why he would believe this foolishness).
Mr X attends the Dudes’ Bowl Study for 4 years. Cool leader explains the Gospel (including Christ took your place— which is said to everyone there).
During these same 4 years Mrs X is going to church regularly… and goes also to MOPS, and several ladies’ retreats (she got to keep the lovely center-piece at her table!).
During these 4 years Mr Cool is “persuading” Mr X (2 Cor 5:11). Mr Cool “reasons with” Mr X (Acts 17:2). Mr Cool “convinces” Mr X (Acts 28:23).
After 4 and a half years, Mr and Mrs X make a public profession of faith and get baptized, having gone from “foolishness to being convinced.”
They give their testimony in front of the whole church before being baptized and it is filled with the word “foolishness” “convincing” “persuading”….. and since this is a non-Calvinist church everyone says amen and claps.
Everyone…. except three visiting, bearded, tattooed, young, white, male, college guys in the back. They are grieved that people would be allowed to “rob God of his glory.” At the coffee hour after the service they, in a snarky manner, insist that Mr X was actually “dead” and the Gospel was “foolishness” and he was given that faith.
Mr X asks the angry-sounding YRR guys “When did He give me faith? Was I dead all those 4 years of Bible study and consistent searching of the Scriptures in discussion with friends and my wife? When—- at what point was I Calvinistically ‘regenerated’ and ‘made alive’ so I could then ‘freely choose’?”
The angry young men quickly use their phones to go to Sproul’s site (one of the young men) and monergism.com (the 2 others).
They say to Mr X….. “Your were regenerated nanoseconds before you believed and made the public profession.”
Mr X, scratches his head (cuz he was actually present during the whole process) and asks, “What was I during those 4 years of Bible study, prayer, and seeking answers?”
Angry young man #1 (the one with only his left arm in full sleeve-tattoos, plus one tiny tat-cross on his neck) says to him with conviction and vigor….”You were ‘dead’ and a God-hater.”
Mr X responds simply, “That’s Good News alright!”
……………… then after a moment of reflection…… Mr X adds, “Yep…. your ‘gospel’ is indeed foolishness!”
FOH,
I think I have met those 3 guys…
Sproul has also said that – A man can be regenerated even months before he expresses “Saving Faith”. – This is his way of answering the dilemma laid out in your story. Their extra Biblical Worldview makes it necessary that they come up with many creative extra-Biblical answers. You have to hand it to them they are very very creative in making scripture stand on it’s head.
GraceAdict
Their extra Biblical Worldview makes it necessary that they come up with many creative extra-Biblical answers. You have to hand it to them they are very very creative in making scripture stand on it’s head.
br.d
Another bulls-eye GraceAdict!
The art of Calvinism is the ability to twist (language – logic – and scripture) – into a pretzel
And then tell yourself you’re not doing it. :-]
GA,
RH has stated on this blog many times that Sproul teaches that it is at the same time.
I cannot find it on the Sproul site since the articles that discuss it are all paid-for articles ($2, $5, etc).
Yes, he has stated both… he may have evolved to just hold to one point of view. The time I heard him state that it could be months was in a video…also it was an older video as he looked younger. At the time he was trying to reconcile the facts as stated in your argument, a person is hearing truth they are beginning to responded to the light that they have but have not yet placed their faith in the Gospel message. So his dilemma was, how can an unregenerate, God hater, Heart of stone, respond positively to truth before he has been given new life…his conclusion at that time was a person can be regenerate, not know it even months before he places his faith in the gospel. I am sure some of his fellow – Calvinists took him to task and told him -you can’t say that, this will undermine our credibility if you say there are Regenerate, people who have not placed their faith in the Gospel and therefore NOT Justified. Regenerate, Unjustified, Unsaved people walking around won’t work R.C. you have to get back on the team- I can imagine it was a slap upside the head. He was trying to reconcile what you and I know to be true about unsaved people responding to truth even before they have as they put it “saving faith”.
Indeed GA,
That is a real show-stopper for Calvinists.
Some people’s “journey to faith” takes years and years. I mean they study the Bible….go to church…. do research on Scripture and the Gospel for years.
Of course “dead” people dont do this …. and God-haters dont do this….. and people who think it is “only 100% foolishness” do not do this.
According to Calvinism they must be regenerated to even seek at all. In any form.
So…. Calvinists are left with: “regenerated for years before salvation” or “unregenerated people seeking”
No a lot of wiggle room in there.
GraceAdict
[Sproul’s] conclusion at that time was a person can be regenerate, not know it
br.d
This lines up with Calvin who states essentially that a LARGE MIXTURE of Calvinists are deceived by Calvin’s god into believing they are regenerate and not know it.
A significant portion of Calvin’s god’s relationship with his creatures is spent deceiving them.
FOH
Sproul site since the articles that discuss it are all paid-for articles ($2, $5, etc).
br.d
All over priced – since each is only worth 2¢ :-]
1. Is Faith effectually given? – The correct answer is YES
2. It is scriptural according to I Cor. 2:14
“But the natural man [fallen man includes the elect] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God;[but arrogantly Brd and FOH keeps on insisting what is contrary this verse is saying in itself] for they are foolishness unto him; [FOH and BRd are both in dispute with this part] neither can he know them, [but FOH and BRD says the opposite that the fallen man can know God by themselves and does not need to be given faith] because they are spiritually discerned” [again FOH and BRD denies this part, the very reason according to this verse why the fallen man is unable to access God by themselves alone because they are spiritually discerned, yet FOH and BRD denies and hate so much the “TD” or “TI” of the Reformed Churches]
So… this verse clearly says in itself the inability of the fallen man in his spiritually discerned status to have an access to God in his own accord. He is therefore caught in a desperate and helpless condition unless God will effectually give him (the elect) the faith for him to activate in placing his trust to Christ.
This given faith is compatible not only in trusting Christ but also to His Teachings in the sacred scriptures. I’m sure FOH and BRD will again deny the truth revealed by this verse as I have shown here to the readers. Both of them obviously claims that they love Christ but they will denounce again Christ’s teachings in this verse and will just say one of the “gotcha verses” – the favorite dictum of FOH.
jtleosala
I Cor. 2:14
[FOH and BRd are both…says the opposite that the fallen man can know God by themselves and does not need to be given faith]
br.d
Even a boastful child can make a claim.
Why don’t you attempt to make a LOGICAL argument to show how your claim is true?
Is Faith Effectually Given? – The Correct Answer is YES
This is supported by the scripture cited below:
1. “Most assuredly I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” – John 5:25
1.1 Christ is speaking in the verse to His audience the Jews
1.2 What does Christ says in this verse? – Answer: Christ said that : “The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God”
1.3 How can a dead person do the act of hearing when he is dead? – Answer: That dead person will be irresistibly receive Divine intervention coming from God. God then, will enliven that dead person in order for him to be able to activate the faith to trust Christ.
1.4 Is there an assurance from Christ’s statement? – Answer : YES ! Christ said that those who hear His voice will live.
2. “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” – John 1:13
2.1 The apostle John is the one speaking in this verse to his readers, the recipients of this book, including FOH and BRD
2.2 What does John says in this verse? – Answer: Those who will become the children of God has to be born, not in accordance with the will of man himself, but of God.
2.3 Who’s will is more superior in this verse? Is it the will of man or the will of God? ; Answer: The will of God is more superior. God’s will will can tamper man’s will in order to pursue God’s plan for man (the elect). [but FOH and BRD will immediately deny this and FOH will just easily spew this out from his mouth and will say… this verse is just one of the “gotcha verses]
2.4 If God wills to effectually give faith to the sinner [the elect] in order to accomplish His plan for them to be born again, then who is FOH and BRD to harass what God wants to accomplish?
jtleosala
God’s will will can TAMPER man’s will in order to pursue God’s plan for man
br.d
This statement from a Calvinist reveals DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS.
In Theological Determinism Calvin’s god does not “tamper” with man’s will – he DETERMINES every part of every aspect of man’s being and every part of every aspect of man’s every attribute. And man has absolutely no say in what any of his attributes will be or do.
There is not one attribute of man that man has any control over – as these are FULLY determined by Calvin’s god.
Every neurological impulse that will appear in man’s brain – is fated to occur – being determined before man is created.
That’s not called “tampering” that is called ABSOLUTE CONTROL.
jtleosala – I deleted your post where you accuse others of “spewing” scripture out of their mouth
That type of hateful language reflects poorly on the site – and is not tolerated.
This will not be the first time you’ve been warned about your language.
jtleosala
then who is FOH and BRD to harass what God wants to accomplish?
br.d
This statement from a Calvinist reveals DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS
In Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) there is no such thing as a creature “harassing what the THEOS wants to accomplish”.
In Theological Determinism the THEOS has ABSOLUTE and TOTAL control over all things.
Whatever the creature does is a manifestation of what Calvin’s god wants.
Calvin’s god does NOT PERMIT the creature to disobey.
Not even one single neurological impulse that will appear in the creature’s brain is under his control.
Is Faith Effectually Given? – The correct answer is : YES
This is supported by the scripture cited below:
1. “For it is God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”. – 2 Cor. 4:6
1.1 The apostle Paul is the persona in this verse with the believers @ Corinthian Church as audience and the future readers of the words of God, including FOH and BRD.
1.2 What does the apostle Paul says in this verse? Answer: Paul identified God as the only One causal for the light to shine in the heart of the sinner. [But FOH assert and claim of man’s independency to come to God by using his own generated faith]
1.3 What does that light can do to the recipient? – Answer: according to the verse, it will help give the recipient, the knowledge of the glory of God. In other words, the fallen man upon receiving the light given to him, he will then be enlightened and be able to put his trust to Christ.
1.4 Why there is a need to give the light irresistibly? Answer is: Because they are living in darkness and the gospel is veiled to the fallen man due to satan’s making them blind – see below the preceding verses of 2 Corinthians :
v. 3 “But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. [If God will not do the act of unveiling, FOH’s and BRD’s efforts in preaching the gospel will remain in vain]
v. 4 “Whose minds the god of this world (satan) has blinded, [Can FOH and BRD capable to unblind them, if they will deny again God’s Divine Intervention?] who do not believe, lest the light of the knowledge of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them”
Still no LOGICAL argument as to why all these claims against FOH and br.d are true?
Must be there isn’t any
It is totally understandable that within the SCHEME of Universal Divine Causal Determinism – that events occur as “unconditional”.
And within this SCHEME creaturely activities occur as “irresistible”.
But the truth is – in this scheme:
– EVERYTHING is “unconditional” and that includes all sin as well.
– EVERYTHING is “irresistible” and that includes all sin as well.
The THEOS makes EVERYTHING occur as “unconditional” and “irresistible” to the creature
That is the nature of Theological Determinism.
We have had many back-and-forth volleys on this site about whether faith is a “gift” or simply an innate capacity to choose life versus death.
The Bible I read says this in Rom 10:17: Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
The Bible Calvinists read apparently says this: Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ – but only for Elect ears that have been supernaturally unstopped.
Reading John 5:18-40 today, I was again reminded of the truth of Rom 10:17. Hearing is all that is required in order to exercise faith – it is resident and waiting to be used or repressed, not absent and waiting to be “effectually given”. See my emphasis below in bold. Also, notice who He is talking to here (Jews seeking to kill Him):
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 31 “If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. 34 But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38 You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
If the unsaved are totally unable to respond, why do we see Jesus making statements such as the one below, shaming the hard-hearted listeners?
Matt 16:1-3 (NASB)
The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. But He replied to them, “ When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3 And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?”
Isn’t this scolding by Jesus as foolish as the trite little exercise at Reformed seminaries where the first year students are taken to a graveyard, told to preach loudly and boldly, and then condescendingly told the effort of preaching to dead people is as futile as preaching to those who are “spiritually dead” that God has not yet regenerated?
Perhaps the reason Jesus makes statements like this is precisely because man DOES have the ability to respond but chooses to repress it / rationalize it away / persist in unbelief willingly.
Just sayin’
Keep saying it.
There are hundreds more of these kinds of Calvinist-puzzling verses.
Jesus says …..”Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
Calvinist version:
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you (like you were ordained to do), how I never wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, so I made you unwilling.”
Steve again very well stated and here is a reading from today that adds to this… of course not adding to Jesus in anyway😉
June 2, 2020
Let Him Hear
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” (Revelation 3:22)
It makes an eternal difference whether a person hears—yet doesn’t hear—or really hears what he hears, especially when God speaks! In Christ’s seven letters to the seven churches (Revelation 2 and 3), representing all churches, each letter concludes with His words in our text. How important it is to really hear when He speaks!
First of all, when we truly hear His call, He gives salvation. “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24). Then, if we have really become His sheep, we will hear His voice and follow Him as He leads. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27). “He calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out” (John 10:3). Also, if we really hear when He speaks through His Word, we will do what He says. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock” (Matthew 7:24).
The voice of the Lord can even raise the dead: “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth” (John 5:28-29). Now, if even those who have died physically can hear Him, surely He is able also to quicken those who are spiritually (KEY…. this is me adding to Dr. Morris only the word key) dead if they will only listen as He calls. But it is necessary that they hear! “To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke….whose carcasses fell in the wilderness….So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:15-19). “He that hath an ear, let him hear!” HMM
He allows all to hear hmm sounds like only some will listen… Not all are in capable, but rather there is a response… how silly/foolish to believe the majority doesn’t have a millimeter of a chance, because from birth He closed their ears forever (nah) as FOH always says, that’s not in the Bible or rather not in tune with it.. 🌻
And from today’s reading (bold emphasis mine)…
2 Pet 2:1 (NASB)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
I thought Jesus only died for the Elect. Because “L” told me so and my Reformed instructors insisted it could be no other way.
How wasteful of Jesus — paying for (buying) those who deny Him and bring swift destruction on themselves. Who would love in such a way as this? Sounds completely reckless and foolish to me.
Oh, wait…
1 Cor 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
This probably means only for the Elect, right?
And still more from today…
2 Pet 2:20-22 (NASB)
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
For those playing along at home, I’ll take “things contradicting ‘P’ for $200, Alex.”
Amazing. “L” and “P” challenged in just a single chapter. Like many of us here say, if you will simply read your WHOLE Bible and allow it to speak without filtering through TULIP, the truth will set you free. The fallacy of TULIP is on almost every page for him that has ears to hear and eyes to see.
But Sabin,
MacArthur says about this passage and the ones in Hebrews (i.e. 6:4, “….for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away…”), that it only LOOKS LIKE they “know the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” ….
According to MacArthur (who appears to have the final say…or at least says it the most dogmatically) that these people who have shared in the Holy Spirit, are not really believers.
Nah….. just read the Bible and listen to it. It contradicts Calvinism on every page.
Calvinism 101:
40 easy lessons in how to get scripture to say what our tradition wants it to say. :-]
Don’t miss this lesson – its essential! :-]
Yeah — it’s so ambiguous. Words like “after” “escaped” “turn away” “overcome” and “again” are just there to trick you. They were never really saved — it’s crystal clear except for when it isn’t.
A cosmic Quarterback Sneak.
Because “P”.
Actually Christ is offered to the non elect, that’s why they’re not elected, they refused his pleadings…. Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: the responsibility is obviously man’s… God knows the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10 Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Yes Richard!
Agreed. There are hundreds of verses where the Word says that God is offering and man is refusing.
Which is why MacArthur is forced into such an untenable position saying something like “God does in fact offer it to all…but only effectually offers it some.” What in the world does that mean?
He has given a lot of push back lately to his own tribe (the young buck YRRs) telling them to stop saying God does not love everyone. He goes on to list some of the many verses making it clear that God loves everyone (much to their chagrin)…. but then says things like —- but He only loves some in the certain way that effectually secures them for salvation (read: forces as in “I” irresistible grace).
You do realize, right, in posting your good, non-Calvinist posts here that you are in direct opposition to several big-gun teachers of our day: MacArthur, Piper, Keller, Chan (but he is leaky), Platt, Josh Harris (Oh sorry, he no longer believes), etc.
Just saying….. it’s been quite a YRR wave and lots of us jumped on in the 70’s.
ps. (I jumped back off)
FOH
God does in fact offer it to all…but only effectually offers it some.” What in the world does that mean?
br.d
Its called “Bait and switch” ;-D
Yeah, and it’s called “Compatibilism” which really means nothing.
MacArthur would say that every man is responsible and can freely make his choice for God’s offer (but unregenerate man will always decide no).
But then he affirms the L in Limited Atonement. That is just not possible and really is a silly disgrace, if I may.
Limited Atonement states clearly that the atonement was NEVER, EVER intended for anyone outside of the few. If the offer of Christ’s Atonement (sacrice) was “limited” before time, and micromanaged by God to be only for the very few, then there is NO WAY you can say that men are “rejecting it.”
Many, many Calvinists own this. They state clearly and unequivocally that God does not love or offer salvation to the non-elect. MacArthur (having taught many of his early years as a non-Calvinist—-and staying somewhat true to the many “God loves everyone” passages) cannot go that far. So he waffles and upchucks a form of silly combatibilism that we are somehow supposed to accept.
Basically – what “Compatiblism” in Calvinism means – whatsoever comes to pass is of necessity – “compatible” with the secret divine meticulous will – who leaves ZERO% for any creature to determine anything about anything.
So the state of man’s nature – at every instance in time – it 100% determined.
And nothing about anything is UP TO any man.
The problem the Calvinist has with this – is that it is a camel too large for him to swallow.
And he knows is he doesn’t MASQUERADE that aspect of it then its too large for anyone to swallow.
So he manufactures deceptive FACADES of Calvinism designed to make it *APPEAR* like allows man to think/act independently by himself – which is a total lie!!!
John Calvin
-quote
They are mere INSTRUMENTS into which god INFUSES whatever energy he deems meet – and turns and converts to his pleasure.
Whatsoever impulses come to pass within the human brain – are conceived and actualized by Calvin’s god. And he makes them IRRESISTIBLE.
The Calvinist wants to call that “freedom” in order to get people to swallow it.
But in the end Calvinism shows its colors
Because it has to use DECEPTIVE LANGUAGE tricks in order to propagate itself.
FOH, I think the crux of the problem with Calvinism is their conflating salvation with belief. I like to refer to the Philippian jailer issue because salvation is reduced to its lowest terms so to speak. There is a man seeking salvation, there are evangelists there to instruct him. Then the question is posed…what must I do to be saved? What must I DO(active voice)—he MUST do something—to BE SAVED(passive voice)—salvation is done TO him, not by him. So no one is working for their salvation as in evidenced by the mechanics of the language…active vs passive voice. Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Exactly Richard!
But that does stop them from accusing us of “works salvation” (or saying that we say “we did it”).
Another great passage to debunk them is Romans 4
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
————-
So he is clearly NOT justified by works. But them immediately is says…What does Scritpure say? Abraham believe (do) and it was credited (passive).
The two impiortant things we learn there are that Paul is teaching that “faith is not a work” (they accuse us of that unless we adhere to their idea that God gives (forces) the faith).
And second: We must believe…then, and after that, is righteousness given to us.
Believe/ faith is not a work, but a necessary condition to have God cover us with righteousness.
Thanks for the encouragement and verses FOH.
I don’t think you are being fair to what Piper is saying in his article. Piper never said Paul was “addressing “synergistic free will advocates” in Romans 12:3 because he was concerned about them taking credit for their salvation and boasting about their choice to trust in Christ”. His answer would be No, Paul wasn’t. And if you read his article and ask him “was Paul addressing believers with various gifts being jealous or boastful due to the kind of gift or role they were given within the body of Christ?” he would say yes. That is the start of your argument here, combating something Piper never said with a context he never laid it out. What he says in his article is -yes, Paul was addressing believers boasting on their gifts. And how he addresses? By remembering them that not only their gifts but their faith in which came with their gifts were given by God-. This is what Piper was saying. Piper would agree on the context and not say “Christians were then bragging about their “free will decision” to humbly confess their sin”. No. That is not what he says in his article or basis his interpretation. However, he says Paul is reminding them of something that goes past their gifts..the faith (with the gifts) was given to them by God, in different measures. And yes, this is what any calvinist believes. Maybe argue that, not misrepresenting him to be distorting the context in which he would not even agree with.
Hello Carina and welcome.
Your point could be well taken – all except for a statement within Mr. Piper’s dialog quoted in the article.
-quote
not only are spiritual gifts a work of God’s free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts.
Yes Mr. Piper is addressing the spiritual gift issue. But he is piggy-backing on that issue, to go beyond it – and representing a position that is unique to Calvinism. In Calvinism “Faith” is not treated as an “ACTION” (i.e. VERB) and it is therefore not something a human does.
“Faith” For the Calvinist is treated as a concrete object which must be given to a person like a baseball, or a book, or like a new program you install into your computer.
He is connecting the two by the term “gift”.
The distinction Mr. Piper is making, therefore – is the Calvinist’s unique distinction which separates the Calvinist from all Non-Calvinist systematics. The Calvinist treats “Faith” as a concrete object which must be given to a person.
The ability to believe certain things is not an attribute a person is born with in Calvinism. Which if you think about LOGICALLY – resolves to one more thing in Calvinism that is both TRUE and FALSE at the same time.
Everyone knows the human mind is designed with the capacity of belief. It doesn’t take long for a new born baby to believe its mother will respond to its cries. And the mother doesn’t have to install a neuro-software program called “belief” into the baby’s brain in order for the baby to have that faith. The baby’s brain already comes with the faculty of belief.
But treating “Faith” as a concrete object – like it is a software upgrade in a person’s neurological programming, is consistent with a belief in Universal Divine Causal Determinism, which is the underlying core proposition in Calvinism. Thus Calvinist conceptions are consistent with that.
Blessings!