Did you know that Dr. Flowers has been doing short(er) videos? No? Well, crawl out of the rock you’re living under and behold the glory of less Dr. Flowers! Wait, that’s not what I…Look, Dr. Flowers is doing bite-sized videos to show your friends and family. There is a sample below and check out the playlist here!
These are Great Videos – Very useful and makes them watchable by folks who can only spare a few minutes at a time.
KEEP these coming. They lay out our case very well in bite size pieces. These can also help people from being taken captive by the dominant philosophy of the age…
Loved John 6:44 De-Calvinized! Thank you again for everything you do!
Yes these are great short videos!! I’ve used a couple even for a young person God brought into my life. Their view isn’t necessarily rooted in calvinism, but absolutley a hint of gnosticism. It’s crazy, that some of the younger generation want to get their knowledge from YouTube about the Lord, so yes these videos are very much needed!!! I hope to share with my family too, and I did send Leighton’s book; God’s provision for all, to my nephew who is struggling with his belief in God and he does come from a calvinist family.. Also I had no idea new age was infiltrating into the church the enemy still twists Scripture and now on YouTube, so thank you for your continued work. Also one thought if you have someone who can draw anime it is a good way to reach the techie younger generation who consider themselves nerds. Not sure how difficult this would be to produce, so probably not really needed. Anyway once again thank great job! 😊
Ok key words in the text and one of which is DRAW now let’s look at it’s definition
Strong’s Definitions: †ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo’-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
And how it’s used else where in scripture.
Act 16:19
But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and DRAGGED them into the marketplace to the authorities.
Act 21:30
And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and DRAGGED him out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut.
This word does not mean to entice or influence as a possible effect , but it produces a actual effect on the object it’s displayed on.
Now if draw means as Arminianism means this in John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
You can not avoid universalism,the error here is that all people’s doesn’t mean every single person head for head but rather all people’s without distinction of race, age ,gender and class.
As defined here in the later definition Outline of Biblical Usage:
individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
“collectively
some of all types”
Hi Shawn – something to consider
The Calvinist conception of DRAGGED here is DRAGGED by an IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE.
If you’re using that conception for this word based on its meaning in the Greek – then you must be consistent in its use
James 1:14 – But every man is tempted, when he is DRAGGED BY AN IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE away of his own lust, and enticed.
The word in this case is from ἐξέλκω [to entice (Strong’s); to drag out (Mounce)]
Now you do have the option of dropping the concept of an IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE as part of your conception of DRAGGED.
And in that case – it would mean – even though sin has a DRAGGING effect – it can be resisted.
But if you do that you’ll have to be consistent and apply that across the board where DRAGGED is used concerning the offer of salvation.
Brd wrote :James 1:14 – But every man is tempted, when he is DRAGGED BY AN IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE away of his own lust, and enticed.
The word in this case is from ἐξέλκω [to entice (Strong’s); to drag out (Mounce)]
You would agree these aren’t the same words?
Draw John 6:44 G1670 – helkō
G1670 – ἕλκω
G1671 ››
‹‹ G1669
Transliteration: helkō
Pronunciation: he’l-kō
Part of Speech: verb
Root Word (Etymology): Probably akin to αἱρέω (G138)
TDNT Reference: 2:503,227
Outline of Biblical Usage:
to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
KJV Translation Count: 8x
The KJV translates Strongs G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Strong’s Definitions: †ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo’-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G16
James 1:14 drawn G1828 – exelkō
G1828 – ἐξέλκω
G1829 ››
‹‹ G1827
Transliteration: exelkō
Pronunciation: eks-e’l-kō
Part of Speech: verb
Root Word (Etymology): From ἐκ (G1537) and ἕλκω (G1670)
Outline of Biblical Usage:
to draw out
metaph. lure forth: in hunting and fishing as game is lured from its hiding place, so man by lure is allured from the safety of self-restraint to sin. In Jas 1:14, the language of the hunting is transferred to the seduction of a harlot.
But I see that text in James as no contradiction any way because every man sins apart regeneration and the reason they do is because they are bound to sinful nature.
Shawn
You would agree these aren’t the same words?
br.d
Shawn – how much difference is there between DRAGGED and DRAGGED OUT OF?
The word “draw” in James 1:14 and John 6:44 comes from the same Greek word – ἑλκύω.
James 1:14 – ἐξελκόμενος – Being Drawn Away [Present Participle Middle]
from ἐξέλκω [to entice (Strong’s); to drag out (Mounce)]
from ἐξ – [out of] and ἑλκύω – to drag
Therefore; to ‘drag out of’.
The Preposition ἐξ doesn’t alter its meaning but rather, provides clarity of being dragged ‘out of’.
So – ON TOP OF THAT – you’re still left with the option of ADDING or not the conception of an IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE
But if you do – then you have to ADD it consistently – and not arbitrarily
Shawn
But I see that text in James as no contradiction any way because every man sins apart regeneration and the reason they do is because they are bound to sinful nature
br.d
Think about it – on one verse the concept of IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE is being added to the text.
In another verse it is not.
Who gets to decide when the concept of an IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE is to be ADDED or not?
Additionally
In Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) it actually does makes sense to say that sin is CAUSED by an IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE.
That FORCE being the DIVINE DECREE.
The THEOS does NOT PERMIT the creature to falsify or negate the DECREE
The THEOS does NOT PERMIT any event to falsify or negate the DECREE
Therefore the creature has no escape and cannot resist the DECREE
The creature is NOT PERMITTED to be/do otherwise
And the option to be/do otherwise is not made available to the creature.
So in Theological Determinism – if it has been DECREED that you will sin a hideous sin tomorrow at 10 AM – then it LOGICALLY follows
– You CANNOT RESIST that DECREE
– You have NO ESCAPE from that DECREE.
– You are NOT PERMITTED to NOT sin
– NO other option is available to you.
Now one can try to dance around those LOGICAL consequences – by a tap dance of self-contradictions.
The point I wanted you to note that they are not the same and do have a differing definition somewhat according to Strongs.
Let’s look at some things here and move on to John 12:32 Lord willing.
1)Now my question to you are anyone else who may want to answer this in reference to James 1:14 is have you escaped all temptation known to man or has anyone ever besides Christ?And if not why is that according to James 1:14?
And then back to John 6:44 the text says that 44 “No one CAN come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I WILL raise him up at the last day.
Jesus clearly states that all that are drawn He I WILL raise up the last day,it’s a irresistible draw and resurrection because the whole power to perform is on the I Will being Christ will to perform and bring to pass.
Are you stating that in that text they are some drawn but are not finally raised up?
Shawn
The point I wanted you to note that they are not the same and do have a differing definition somewhat according to Strongs.
br.d
Yes – but I answered that more than sufficiently – and now you have something to think about.
Shawn
1)Now my question to you….is have you escaped all temptation known to man or has anyone ever besides Christ?
br.d
Well we have two world-views here to take into consideration.
We have Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) in which *ALL* sins and temptations come to pass INFALLIBLY as the byproduct of DECREE. Please go back to all of the LOGICAL consequences I detailed for you in my last post – and see if you can find any reason why those are not LOGICALLY valid.
Then we have the opposite world-view of IN-determinism.
In this world-view the THEOS sets before the creature multiple options – all of which exist as real and available to the creature – and the THEOS “merely” permits the creature to choose from among that range of options – that choice being compatible with the creature’s nature.
So in this case – the creature is not FATED to sin.
And as such there is an ESCAPE from that sin.
Shawn
And then back to John 6:44 the text says that 44 “No one CAN come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I WILL raise him up at the last day. Jesus clearly states that all that are drawn/….etc Are you stating that in that text they are some drawn but are not finally raised up?
br.d
I don’t see how my statements have been difficult to understand.
If one ADDS the concept of IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE to the word DRAG – then one must be consistent and apply that concept to DRAG OUT OF.
I went beyond that and detailed for you how within the scheme of Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) an IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE – the DECREE – is at work.
Not only in the salvation process as Calvinists want to acknowledge – but the DECREE CAUSES EVERYTHING the creature is and does.
So it makes sense to me that the Calvinist conceives of an IRRESISTIBLE DIVINE FORCE because that is an inherent characteristic of UNIVERSAL Divine Causal Determinism. The consistent Calvinist will apply that concept consistently.
You may want to check out Calvinist Vincent Chung’s web-site – I think you’ll find him a very consistent thinker on this regard.
Let’s address this and then hopefully get back to what John 6 :44 teaches.
Brd wrote :Then we have the opposite world-view of IN-determinism.
In this world-view the THEOS sets before the creature multiple options – all of which exist as real and available to the creature – and the THEOS “merely” permits the creature to choose from among that range of options – that choice being compatible with the creature’s nature.
So in this case – the creature is not FATED to sin.
And as such there is an ESCAPE from that sin.
Romans 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.fn But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
My question Brd could there less than 7000 men or more than 7000 men that did not sin and bow to Balak,did God determine there faithfulness or did he give them multiple choice and man’s free will determine?
Shawn
Let’s address this and then hopefully get back to what John 6 :44 teaches.
Brd wrote :Then we have the opposite world-view of IN-determinism.
In this world-view the THEOS sets before the creature multiple options – all of which exist as real and available to the creature – and the THEOS “merely” permits the creature to choose from among that range of options – that choice being compatible with the creature’s nature.
So in this case – the creature is not FATED to sin.
And as such there is an ESCAPE from that sin.
Shawn
My question Brd could there less than 7000 men or more than 7000 men that did not sin and bow to Balak,did God determine there faithfulness or did he give them multiple choice and man’s free will determine?
br.d
You didn’t have to quote all of those verses etc to ask that question – its a simple question to ask.
In Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) the THEOS determines every neurological impulse that will appear in each person’s brain.
Calvinist Paul Helms confirms this:
-quote
“Not only is every atom and molecule, every thought and desire, kept in being by God, but every twist and turn of each
of these is under the DIRECT CONTROL of god”
Additionally – as I’ve detailed for you – the THEOS does NOT PERMIT the creature or any event to falsify or negate the DECREE.
To apply that to any narrative – it LOGICALLY follows all of those men were NOT PERMITTED to be/do otherwise.
And no other option was available to them.
In the IN-Deterministic world view – the THEOS does set before those men multiple options – all of which are real – and “merely” permit them to choose – that choice being compatible with their nature.
Perhaps you actually intended to ask a different question.
“How did the THEOS know in advance there would be exactly 7000 men”?
And the answer to that is – that a THEOS with perfect knowledge can know with full and complete comprehension – exactly what every creature would do in any given circumstance – given his knowledge of that creatures inclinations.
And yes – giving the creature multiple options from which to choose and “merely” permitting the creature to choose – would not interfere or compromise such knowledge.
A computer can be input information on how pool balls interact with each other – given information such as Newtonian physics etc.
That computer can then predict with extremely high precision – what every ball will do in that environment – given the initial sequence of events.
If a computer can do that – why can’t a divine being who has perfect knowlege?
Brd asked :If a computer can do that – why can’t a divine being who has perfect knowledge ?
Of course God has perfect knowledge, but your exegesis is not consistent with the text as it says nothing about God’s knowledge of what men would do as you are assuming that in the text, but God told Elijah that “He had reserved 7000 for himself “which demonstrates a work of His work of His election of grace in the following verse (:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.)Also to note that seven in scripture relates to God perfection,not man’s.
Brd asked :If a computer can do that – why can’t a divine being who has perfect knowledge ?
Shawn
Of course God has perfect knowledge, but your exegesis is not consistent with the text as it says nothing about God’s knowledge of what men would do as you are assuming that in the text, but God told Elijah that “He had reserved 7000 for himself “which demonstrates a work of His work of His election of grace in the following verse (:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.)Also to note that seven in scripture relates to God perfection,not man’s.
br.d
Shawn – I didn’t have to do any special exegesis – the LOGIC speaks for itself.
The THEOS reserved 7000 men for a himself.
And sure that can demonstrate a work.
But the question is:
Can the THEOS accomplish that WORK by having a population of men – to which he sets multiple options – all existing as real – and “merely” permitting each man to choose – that choice being consistent with each man’s nature. And that result in 7000 men.
Or does the THEOS determine their every neurological impulse – reducing 7000 men to ROBOTIC functionality?
Do you see indicators in the general narrative of scripture that men are reduced to ROBOTIC functionality – or do you see indicators in the general narrative of scripture that the THEOS sets multiple options before the creature which exist as real options?
Brd asked :But the question is:
Can the THEOS accomplish that WORK by having a population of men – to which he sets multiple options – all existing as real – and “merely” permitting each man to choose – that choice being consistent with each man’s nature. And that result in 7000 men.
Could He?Yes,but that is not what scripture teaches about His knowledge as His knowledge is based on what HE WILL DO and not what men will do,known unto God are all of HIS works not men’s works.
Note the I WILL and not mens will that determine God works from eternity.
Acts 15:14 “Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 “And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I WILL return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I WILL rebuild its ruins,
And I WILL set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.
18 ¶ “Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Brd asked :But the question is:
Can the THEOS accomplish that WORK by having a population of men – to which he sets multiple options – all existing as real – and “merely” permitting each man to choose – that choice being consistent with each man’s nature. And that result in 7000 men.
Shawn
Could He?Yes,but that is not what scripture teaches about His knowledge as His knowledge is based on what HE WILL DO and not what men will do,known unto God are all of HIS works not men’s works.
br.d
AH but that claim is based on the INTERPRETATION process that naturally occurs in the mind of the Theological Determinist.
From my perspective you’re approaching this backwards.
The human mind interprets data using associations with things it holds as unquestionable truth.
Lets assume you embrace the idea that scripture is to be compared with scripture in order to be rightly divided.
And lets assume you have been taught to embrace Universal Divine Causal Determinism as unquestionable truth.
So it LOGICALLY follows – in your mind – Universal Divine Causal Determinism is canon
This means in you’re mind – it functions as scripture for you.
So when you compare scripture with it – your mind automatically interprets scripture through its lens
Even though you don’t technically say it that way – that is what is going on inside your mind as you read scripture.
So all of the verses you are going to quote – in your mind- are going to affirm Theological Determinism for you.
Calvinists often say that they started to believe in Calvinism when scripture was brought to them.
But what actually happens is someone conditions your mind to accept Universal Divine Causal Determinism as canon.
After they condition your mind to accept that – all they have to do is give you a bible and your interpretation of it is guaranteed.
The IN-determinist on the other hand has not been subject to that form of indoctrination.
They don’t hold Universal Divine Causal Determinism as scripture.
They don’t see humans reduced to ROBOTIC functionality.
And so all of this focusing on exegeting scriptures – while ignoring how your mind has been conditioned to read it – is only going to result in two perspectives that have no possible way to agree with each other.
The only way your going to convince anyone to agree with you is by first getting that person to accept Universal Divine Causal Determinism as scripture.
Brd asked :But the question is:
Can the THEOS accomplish that WORK by having a population of men – to which he sets multiple options – all existing as real – and “merely” permitting each man to choose – that choice being consistent with each man’s nature. And that result in 7000 men.
There is nothing in scripture that says that God designed a universe that gave man multiple options and let man determine what happens in the end.
Men does make choices consistent with his nature which sin and not consistent with God’s nature “holy”unless he is born again.So if God doesn’t reserved unto himself 7000 men to not bow their knee to Baal then none would have served a God but all Baal.
Shawn
There is nothing in scripture that says that God designed a universe that gave man multiple options and let man determine what happens in the end.
br.d
Lets say you are reading someone’s commentary on scripture.
And lets say you believe you have the ability to discern a TRUE interpretation from a FALSE one.
This can only happen if the THEOS has set before you TRUE vs FALSE.
AH but in Theological Determinism – the THEOS determines what your perceptions will be – and not you.
And the THEOS determines you to have FALSE perceptions – and determines you to perceive them as TRUE
Don’t think that is possible?
Well that is the model one would find with Theological Determinism
He determines the perceptions of the Jehovah’s witness and the Seventh Day Adventist.
He determines their reading of the scriptures.
The THEOS determines their every perception.
And the THEOS determines yours as well.
CONCLUSION:
You don’t have the ability to determine whether an interpretation of scripture is TRUE or FALSE
Because that is determined for you.
That is what you get when you eliminate a world in which the THEOS sets multiple options before a person – all of which exist as real – and “merely” permits the creature to determine among them.
So if you hold to your claim (above) then you LOGICALLY conclude that you have no way of knowing what is TRUE from what is FALSE because you are not permitted to make that determination.
Brd wrote :The THEOS determines their every perception.
And the THEOS determines yours as well.
Doesn’t scripture clearly state that it’s God alone that enlightens the blind and dead soul?
John 3:3 ¶ Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
Is this not the testimony of scripture Brd?
Brd
The THEOS determines their every perception.
And the THEOS determines yours as well.
Therefore you don’t have the ability to know what is TRUE from what is FALSE because the THEOS doesn’t permit you to determine that.
Shawn
Doesn’t scripture clearly state that it’s God alone that enlightens the blind and dead soul?
Scriptures quoted to affirm
Is this not the testimony of scripture Brd?
br.d
How do you know that your perception and your interpretation of scripture is TRUE since you assert the THEOS doesn’t permit you to determine that?
Since the THEOS determines the interpretation of the Jehovah’s witness and the Seventh Day Adventist etc.
And since the THEOS determines them to perceive their interpretation as TRUE and yours FALSE.
And since the THEOS determines you to perceive their interpretation as FALSE and yours TRUE
What you are arguing – is that you have no way of knowing if your interpretation is TRUE of FALSE.
How is it you don’t see your insistence on this matter as an argument against yourself?
Brd asked :br.d
How do you know that your perception and your interpretation of scripture is TRUE since you assert the THEOS doesn’t permit you to determine that?
How does anyone know if they are right?We compare scripture with scripture as Bereans Acts 17:11 to find out things truth or false.
We believe Christ as Lord which the natural man CANNOT do apart from the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Brd asked
How do you know that your perception and your interpretation of scripture is TRUE since you assert the THEOS doesn’t permit you to determine that?
Shawn
How does anyone know if they are right?We compare scripture with scripture as Bereans Acts 17:11 to find out things truth or false.
br.d
Shawn – in our previous dialog – you argued against what you called Arminian thinking – and then you went on to answer questions regarding how you know you are saved – and all of your answers were nothing but Arminian thinking.
Now you are arguing that there is no such thing as the THEOS setting before you multiple options – all of which are real – and “merely” permitting you to choose – your choice being compatible with your nature.
And once again – you are presenting arguments that assume the very thing you want to argue against. Your last statement above is only LOGICALLY POSSIBLE in a world that you claim doesn’t exist.
You don’t seem to get the picture that your responses here all reflect thinking that can only be LOGICALLY POSSIBLE where the THEOS does set TRUTH and FALSE before you and “merely” permits you to determine the difference between the two.
I wish you could see yourself! :-]
Shawn
We believe Christ as Lord which the natural man CANNOT do apart from the Holy Spirit.
br.d
Again – how do you know that is what you are doing if a THEOS determined your every perception for you and doesn’t tell you if the perception hes given you is TRUE or FALSE?
Following your current argument – the Jehovah’s witness and the Seventh Day Adventist have the same capability that you have.
If you hold to a THEOS who determines your perceptions just as he does the Jehovah’s witness and the Seventh Day Adventist – then you only have one answer. The THEOS doesn’t give you any more ability to know TRUTH from FALSE than he gives to them.
Shawn
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
br.d
Go back to my previous post where I explained how you can’t know if your interpretation of scripture is any more TRUE than the Jehovah’s witness or the Seventh Day Adventist – because the THEOS doesn’t permit you to determine TRUTH from FALSE.
At this point I’m not sure if you are able to think RATIONALLY at all?
And IRRATIONAL thinking will always result in an IRRATIONAL interpretation of any data.
Brd wrote :Now you are arguing that there is no such thing as the THEOS setting before you multiple options – all of which are real – and “merely” permitting you to choose – your choice being compatible with your nature.
God gives multiple commands throughout scripture, and men will only choose that to which is their nature,but what you are saying that a man who isn’t spiritual will choose to glorify God which is against his nature which is a contradiction.Once again the natural man.1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Where are the text that state God setting before fleshly lost men choices and them choosing God glorifying choices?
Brd
Now you are arguing that there is no such thing as the THEOS setting before you multiple options – all of which are real – and “merely” permitting you to choose – your choice being compatible with your nature.
And once again – you are presenting arguments that assume the very thing you want to argue against. Your last statement above is only LOGICALLY POSSIBLE in a world that you claim doesn’t exist.
Shawn
God gives multiple commands throughout scripture, and men will only choose that to which is their nature
br.d
Ok the topic of “multiple commands” is totally different from “multiple options”.
I hope you have the ability to discern that?
On your statement “men will choose that which is their nature” this statement is semi-true in Theological Determinism – but omits the most critical part.
Calvinist Bruce Reichenbach affirms this:
-quote
“There is no instance in which I can desire anything other than that DECREED by god. God MOVES the desire of man in order for man to act accordingly.”
Remember you embrace *UNIVERSAL* Divine Causal Determinism – where the THEOS determines *ALL* things – leaving ZERO left over for the creature to determine.
So “men will only choose” what the THEOS determines them to choose (along with their nature of course)
Shawn
,but what you are saying that a man who isn’t spiritual will choose to glorify God which is against his nature which is a contradiction.
br.d
Shaw – how in the world did you get that from what I said?
This dialog is getting more IRRATIONAL all the time!
Shawn
Where are the text that state God setting before fleshly lost men choices and them choosing God glorifying choices?
br.d
Firstly:
This thinking precedes from your previous mistake – so this question can only result in another fallacy.
Secondly:
I don’t think you realize it – but this question assumes all men in scripture are fleshly lost men – how is that even RATIONAL?
Shawn writes: “God gives multiple commands throughout scripture, and men will only choose that to which is their nature, but what you are saying that a man who isn’t spiritual will choose to glorify God which is against his nature which is a contradiction.” Some texts…please read the text without importing your conclusions into them let the text speak.
GA
Does God / Jesus genuinely desire the Salvation of Jerusalem? The answer is yes.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, *how often would I have* gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and *you would not*!
Their rejection is not “you could not” but “you would not” a choice by the natural man to go either way.
What is God’s command to the unsaved, the natural man? It is to believe.
Some natural men choose to believe others choose not to believe. It is not that they cannot it is that they choose not to.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
The text never says that they could not.
All through scripture we see those who choose to believe and are saved and those who choose not to believe and are not saved.
Mat 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.
No indication that they could not, instead an expectation that they should have believed even like the prostitutes did.
If we just take scripture at face value we do not see the requirement of regeneration to believe the gospel that is simply not there but it is imported into the argument by ones own assumptions.
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Take careful note as to who is believing in this passage below it is the “ungodly” this also makes it clear that the “ungodly, his faith”…. Or the natural man has faith.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
If we don’t import a Calvinist assumption into the text it simply is NOT there all on it’s own. It has to be forced into the text.
GraceAdict
If we don’t import a Calvinist assumption into the text it simply is NOT there all on it’s own. It has to be forced into the text.
br.d
Well said GraceAdict!
Unfortunately, Calvinists don’t allow their minds to acknowledge even the possibility that they could be forcing foreign concepts onto the text. They are so emotionally and psychologically invested in the product they’ve been persuaded to buy – they can’t allow themselves to even consider the possibility of it. They remind me of the proverbial bull in a china cabinet. When it comes to even thinking about the possibility of it – their minds automatically switch into thought blocking mode.
GraceAdict – In regard to Shawn’s question – something new occurred to me.
I was reminded of R.C. Sproul’s statement – “Evil is good because god ordains it”
And we know for the Calvinist everything Calvin’s god ordains glorifies him.
So we combine those Calvinist concepts together with Shawn’s question
-quote
Where are the text that state God setting before fleshly lost men choices and them choosing God glorifying choices?
What we get is:
Calvin’s god makes fleshly lost men make evil choices – because evil is ordained and is therefore good – and thus glorifies Calvin’s god.
So for the Calvinist it LOGICALLY follows – ALL of scripture states fleshly lost men make choices that glorify Calvin’s god.
How ironic it is that that flips the Calvinist’s question right back on himself.
I think its totally incredible how self-contradicting Calvinism is!!!
BR.D writes: What we get is: Calvin’s god makes fleshly lost men make evil choices – because evil is ordained and is therefore good – and thus glorifies Calvin’s god.
So for the Calvinist it LOGICALLY follows – ALL of scripture states fleshly lost men make choices that glorify Calvin’s god.
Thanks BR.D for that it is – Brilliant – and well worded.
That is exactly what the teaching of Consistent Calvinism would have to embrace.
At this point I am sure they would deny this because their soul knows it is hideous but their theology leads them directly there. So it is most likely they would come up with another self-contradicting statement to get out of it. Or some more lipstick for the pig. Or a punt to mystery, paradox, and tension. Or a self declaration of humility: “these are hard truths but I am humble enough to say I don’t know how it all fits together but I do humbly believe them because they are biblical.”
So we do have to conclude that we are left with your observation:
“Calvin’s god makes fleshly lost men make evil choices – because evil is ordained and is therefore good – and thus glorifies Calvin’s god. So for the Calvinist it LOGICALLY follows – ALL of scripture states fleshly lost men make choices that glorify Calvin’s god.”
RC Sproul, John Piper, JMac and Calvin would have to agree that is true within Consistent Calvinism.
BR.D. writes: I was reminded of R.C. Sproul’s statement – “Evil is good because god ordains it”
And we know for the Calvinist everything Calvin’s god ordains glorifies him.
So we combine those Calvinist concepts together with Shawn’s question
-quote
Where are the text that state God setting before fleshly lost men choices and them choosing God glorifying choices?
What we get is:
Calvin’s god makes fleshly lost men make evil choices – because evil is ordained and is therefore good – and thus glorifies Calvin’s god.”
GA: Now add to that the Calvinist Reality which James White, Piper and many others put forth clearly and it is what Consistent Calvinism teaches: How do we know what was decreed by God? The answer: Just look at History: If it came to pass then it was Ordained by the Calvi-god, if it came to pass (Hitler and rapes) it was decreed and it is therefore Good. If it was decreed and therefore Good it glorifies the Calvi-god.
CONCLUSION: There has never been and never will be a single act, thought or word that is NOT GOOD and Does not Glorify God.
Implication: Therefore eat drink and be merry for if anything happens, that alone is proof that it glorifies God and was decreed by God. You cannot do anything that does NOT glorify God…live as you will for if you do that you will be fulfilling the Will of God and glorifying Him.
If you don’t like that conclusion then “who are you oh man to rail against the Calvi-god who determines all things” “We must not judge God with our own understanding of what is Good.” “His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts than our thoughts” says the consistent Calvinist as he boldly proclaims that Evil is good and must therefore Glorify God.
Oh that is good GraceAdict!
All of the above! :-]
Ok I’m back,
Graceadict wrote :Their rejection is not “you could not” but “you would not” a choice by the natural man to go either way.
What is God’s command to the unsaved, the natural man? It is to believe.
Some natural men choose to believe others choose not to believe. It is not that they cannot it is that they choose not to.
Of course they would not and that because they COULD NOT, and it is because the natural man’s nature must be changed for him to will for God.
Here’s a problem with arminian theology as they run from a text that contradicts their doctrine into a text they feel like doesn’t.That’s finding only half a truth and not the whole,which has always been the enemies plate form.
There isn’t one text what you gave that states natural men (unregenerate)can will and believe or receive the things of God ,but you assume such because since God commands you think men must have ability to perform.
You mentioned Romans 4 as such but that is true repentance that we are justified through faith without works from the beginning unto the ending because we are ungodly in ourselves we hold this confession until death . This text neither the others teaches natural ability to receive Christ while in the flesh.You said above that the natural man has faith,but you run into clear contradictions else where .
2Cor :14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 ¶ But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
According to this you are either in the flesh or in the Spirit,no in between and being the natural man how to you say they can please God when the inspired word says you CANNOT please God.
While the pleasing thing to God is faith.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Let scripture interpret scripture not human reason or assumption.
Shawn
What is God’s command to the unsaved, the natural man? It is to believe.
br.d
In Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) this is the ENUNCIATED will – and not the SECRET.
And the THEOS does NOT PERMIT man to disobey it the SECRET will.
And that does not change – whether or not we are talking about the “natural” or not.
It is a LOGICAL impossibility for man – whether natural or not – to DISOBEY the SECRET will.
So whether man is “natural” or not is also the SECRET will of the THEOS – so it is irrelevent.
Shawn
Some natural men choose to believe others choose not to believe. It is not that they cannot it is that they choose not to.
br.d
Shawn – in Theological Determinism man is not the determiner of his choices – the THEOS is.
So the man is not actually making the choice – the THEOS is.
You keep forgetting you embrace ^UNIVERSAL* Divine Causal Determinism – where the THEOS determines *ALL* things – leaving ZERO for the creature to determine.
Shawn
Of course they would not and that because they COULD NOT, and it is because the natural man’s nature must be changed for him to will for God.
br.d
FIRSTLY:
You probably believe you are not the “natural man” because you believe you are saved.
But you don’t really know that because Calvin says the his god may be holding salvation out to you as a -quote “Savor of condemnation”
So you might be TOTALLY DEPRAVED and you don’t know it.
According to Calvin – the THEOS will eventually -quote “strike you with greater blindness”
SECONDLY:
In your belief system the THEOS determines your every choice for you whether you are save or not.
He will keep on determining every choice for you – whether you are save or not
There is not one single choice in your whole life that the THEOS did not determine for you.
Shawn
Here’s a problem with arminian theology as they run from a text that contradicts their doctrine into a text they feel like doesn’t.That’s finding only half a truth and not the whole,which has always been the enemies plate form.
br.d
The irony here is that so many of your posts represent Arminian thinking and not Calvinist thinking
When I questioned you about how you know you are saved – every one of your answers was Arminian answers.
When will you wake up and realize you are only pointing your own finger at yourself.
Shawn
There isn’t one text what you gave that states natural men (unregenerate)can will and believe or receive the things of God ,but you assume such because since God commands you think men must have ability to perform.
br.d
Shawn – you’re not thinking like a Calvinist – you’re still thinking like an Arminian.
In Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) whatever the THEOS DECREES is what man CAN do
The THEOS does NOT PERMIT man do be/do otherwise
Also in Theological Determinism since the THEOS DECREES everything.
Then it follows *ALL* things are of god – whether good or evil.
R.C. Sproul affirms this
-quote
“Evil is good because it is ordained by god”
Therefore in Calvinism Evil is “of god”.
All of your other comments fail – because they fall into the same error of thinking.
You don’t appear to recognize you are simply arguing against your own belief system.
Shawn is arguing that a person is unable to Trust Christ and be saved Until a transformation has first taken place. This transformation is laid out in Romans 8 according to Shawn. A person “In the Flesh” cannot recognize he is sinful and place his faith in Christ. A person must be “In the Spirit” to place his faith in Christ. That is Shawn’s argument from this passaage.
Shawn writes: Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 ¶ But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
According to this you are either in the flesh or in the Spirit,no in between and being the natural man how to you say they can please God when the inspired word says you CANNOT please God. ”
Shawn argues there are two states or identities or positions that a person can be in. One of those states Cannot Trust God for salvation and the other state/position will Trust God for Salvation. He argues, one must be “In the Spirit” BEFORE they can Trust Christ for Salvation.
Now lets look at the passage you cited because this passage details what being “In the Spirit” means and it will detail for us all that has to be TRUE about a person BEFORE they can Trust Christ for their Salvation. Only a person whose Identity or Position is “In the Spirit” can trust Christ…Let’s look at the passage that Shawn used and see if Shawn has the Cart before the Horse.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. — (This verse is Shawn’s proof that a sinner cannot cry out in faith to God for Salvation)
Shawn says “you are either in the flesh or in the Spirit, no in between” he argues this is proof that you must be “in the Spirit” to trust Christ for Salvation.
I will use CAPITALS to highlight the relevant truths being stated by Paul if you are “in the Spirit” this is simultaneously true of you:
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but IN THE SPIRIT, if in fact THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if CHRIST IS IN YOU, although the body is dead because of sin, THE SPIRIT IS LIFE BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead DWELLS IN YOU, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through HIS SPIRIT WHO DWELLS IN YOU.
Rom 8:12 So then, BROTHERS, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God ARE SONS OF GOD.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you HAVE RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION AS SONS, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
If Shawn is going to use this passage to prove that one must be “In the Spirit” before crying out to God and Trusting Christ to save you then these things MUST also be true of that person before he places his faith in Christ…this passages states what it means to be “IN THE SPIRIT”
v9 THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU
v10 CHRIST IS IN YOU….THE SPIRIT IS LIFE BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
v 11 HIS SPIRIT WHO DWELLS IN YOU
v 14 ARE SONS OF GOD.
v15 HAVE RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION AS SONS,
To be theologically consist and logically coherent while using Rom. 8:8 as your proof text then these things cannot be omitted or ignored. These are just some of the things that it means to be “IN THE SPIRIT” which for you is a requirement and a prerequisite to placing ones faith in Christ for Salvation. So ALL of this comes BEFORE Faith and Salvation.
The Cart is definitely in Front of the Horse.
Shawn is arguing that a person is unable to Trust Christ and be saved Until a transformation has first taken place. This transformation is laid out in Romans 8 according to Shawn. A person “In the Flesh” cannot recognize he is sinful and place his faith in Christ. A person must be “In the Spirit” to place his faith in Christ. That is Shawn’s argument from this passaage.
Shawn writes: Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 ¶ But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
According to this you are either in the flesh or in the Spirit,no in between and being the natural man how to you say they can please God when the inspired word says you CANNOT please God. ”
Shawn argues there are two states or identities or positions that a person can be in. One of those states Cannot Trust God for salvation and the other state/position will Trust God for Salvation. He argues, one must be “In the Spirit” BEFORE they can Trust Christ for Salvation.
Now lets look at the passage you cited because this passage details what being “In the Spirit” means and it will detail for us all that has to be TRUE about a person BEFORE they can Trust Christ for their Salvation. Only a person whose Identity or Position is “In the Spirit” can trust Christ…Let’s look at the passage that Shawn used and see if Shawn has the Cart before the Horse.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. — (This verse is Shawn’s proof that a sinner cannot cry out in faith to God for Salvation)
Shawn says “you are either in the flesh or in the Spirit, no in between” he argues this is proof that you must be “in the Spirit” to trust Christ for Salvation.
I will use CAPITALS to highlight the relevant truths being stated by Paul if you are “in the Spirit” this is simultaneously true of you:
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but IN THE SPIRIT, if in fact THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if CHRIST IS IN YOU, although the body is dead because of sin, THE SPIRIT IS LIFE BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead DWELLS IN YOU, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through HIS SPIRIT WHO DWELLS IN YOU.
Rom 8:12 So then, BROTHERS, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God ARE SONS OF GOD.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you HAVE RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION AS SONS, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
If Shawn is going to use this passage to prove that one must be “In the Spirit” before crying out to God and Trusting Christ to save you then these things MUST also be true of that person before he places his faith in Christ…this passages states what it means to be “IN THE SPIRIT”
v9 THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU
v10 CHRIST IS IN YOU….THE SPIRIT IS LIFE BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
v 11 HIS SPIRIT WHO DWELLS IN YOU
v12 BROTHERS
v 14 ARE SONS OF GOD.
v15 HAVE RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION AS SONS,
To be theologically consist and logically coherent while using Rom. 8:8 as your proof text then these things cannot be omitted or ignored. These are just some of the things that it means to be “IN THE SPIRIT” which for you is a requirement and a prerequisite to placing ones faith in Christ for Salvation. So ALL of this comes BEFORE Faith and Salvation.
The Cart is definitely in Front of the Horse. Calvinism confuses the order.
Brd wrote :BR.D writes: What we get is: Calvin’s god makes fleshly lost men make evil choices – because evil is ordained and is therefore good – and thus glorifies Calvin’s god.
So for the Calvinist it LOGICALLY follows – ALL of scripture states fleshly lost men make choices that glorify Calvin’s god.
Brd to glorify God in this lifetime means to praise, honor and worship Him alone.
1 Chronicles 16:28-29, “Ascribe to the LORD, O families of nations, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength, ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name. Bring an offering and come before him; worship the LORD in the splendor of his holiness.”
Isaiah 42:8 confirms this: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.”
Those who do are vessels of glory fitted for glory and those who do not are vessels of wrath that receive his glorious justice.
Shawn
Brd to glorify God in this lifetime means to praise, honor and worship Him alone.
br.d
Now you are arguing the THEOS can DECREE some things that do not glorify him.
That is not Calvinist thinking.
Read this quote from Jonathon Edwards where he argues – the THEOS needs Evil to glorify himself
-quote
“[without Evil] the shining forth of god’s glory would be very imperfect…..nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.”
(works of Edwards)
Read this quote from R.C. Sproul
-quote
“Evil is good because god ordains it”
So you see in Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) “Evil” and “Good” both glorify the THEOS
You are arguing that some things the THEOS DECREES do not glorify him.
I think that argument would be seen as a sign of disrespect for your god.
Brd once again if LFW were true in that men could freely chose to believe in Christ it would be the most pleasing thing to God they could do, and this would be a contradiction.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Shawn
Brd once again if LFW were true in that men could freely chose to believe in Christ it would be the most pleasing thing to God they could do, and this would be a contradiction.
br.d
Shawn – please answer a YES/NO question
Do you think you have the ability to choose whether something is TRUE or FALSE?
Yes or NO?
Brd do I have the ability to choose the truth of God over false hood of the devil?No I don’t if it wasn’t for God I would could not stand against spiritual deception.
Brd now answer my question can someone who is please God in the Flesh?
br.d
Shawn – please answer a YES/NO question
Do you think you have the ability to choose whether something is TRUE or FALSE?
Yes or NO?
Shawn
Brd do I have the ability to choose the truth of God over false hood of the devil?
No I don’t
If it wasn’t for God I would could not stand against spiritual deception.
Brd now answer my question can someone who is please God in the Flesh?
br.d
Wait – not so fast – I asked you that question for a reason.
So I asked you the question
Do you think you have the ability to choose whether something is TRUE or FALSE?
Your answer is NO.
Is that correct?
br.d
Shawn – please answer a YES/NO question
Do you think you have the ability to choose whether something is TRUE or FALSE?
Yes or NO?
Shawn
Brd do I have the ability to choose the truth of God over false hood of the devil?
No I don’t
If it wasn’t for God I would could not stand against spiritual deception.
Brd now answer my question can someone who is please God in the Flesh?
br.d
Wait – not so fast – I asked you that question for a reason.
So I asked you the question
Do you think you have the ability to choose whether something is TRUE or FALSE?
Your answer is NO.
Is that correct?
No I don’t and not anyone does satan is able to sift all as wheat.
31 ¶ And the Lord said,fn “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat.
32 “But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail;
br.d
Do you think you have the ability to choose whether something is TRUE or FALSE?
Shawn
No I don’t and not anyone does ….
br.d
Ok – so you don’t think you have the ability to choose whether something is TRUE or FALSE.
So now consider the following:
1) You do not think that you are without sin.
2) Whenever you choose something to be TRUE that is in fact FALSE – that is a manifestation of sin
3) In Calvinism the THEOS (at the foundation of the world) determines all of your choices
4) Any time the THEOS determines you to choose TRUE which is in fact FALSE – is an instance in which THEOS has determined you to perceive a FALSEHOOD.
5) Since you don’t have the ability to choose whether something is TRUE or FALSE – then it LOGICALLY follows – the THEOS is the only one who knows whether or not the perceptions he gives you are TRUE perceptions or FALSE perceptions.
CONCLUSION:
Only the THEOS knows TRUE from FALSE.
The THEOS controls your perceptions – and sometimes gives you FALSE perceptions
Therefore you don’t have the ability to *EVER* know or say whether something is TRUE or FALSE
SHAWN
OCTOBER 21, 2019 AT 8:24 AM
Brd once again if LFW were true in that men could freely chose to believe in Christ it would be the most pleasing thing to God they could do, and this would be a contradiction.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Brd the question still awaits you?
SHAWN
OCTOBER 21, 2019 AT 8:24 AM
Brd once again if LFW were true in that men could freely chose to believe in Christ it would be the most pleasing thing to God they could do, and this would be a contradiction.
br.d
Did you simply ignore my last post to you Shawn?
I’ve explained contradictions to you.
Why should I not assume you aren’t willing or able to comprehend them?
Brd it seems you try to work doctrine out outside of the Bible as you rarely revert to the Bible by using human reason in which you call it logic ,perhaps it is because you see the tension in the word of God of and would rather not deal with it.To me it seems as you want to rail against calvinism without defending your position but that’s my opinion of the matter.
One thing so profoundly taught is Gods revealed will and His secret which I believe you don’t reason.
Shawn
Brd it seems you try to work doctrine out outside of the Bible
br.d
Shawn it seems you simply ignore RATIONAL thinking – perhaps because you don’t comprehend it – or perhaps you don’t know how to think RATIONALLY.
Shawn
as you rarely revert to the Bible by using human reason in which you call it logic
br.d
I think its apparent you don’t like reasoning
And its becoming obvious to me that so far my reasoning has been sincere and RATIONAL
And I can see you are sincere – but in so many ways don’t appear to be a RATIONAL thinker.
Shawn
perhaps it is because you see the tension in the word of God of and would rather not deal with it.
br.d
Perhaps you have been indoctrinated to pigeon-hole various scripture verses with different topics such as Libertarian Free will – and you’ve memorized those things and that’s the only way your mind knows how to think about them. So when you’re in a REAL conversation with someone and you’re presented with the challenge to *THINK* outside of that box – your mind doesn’t know how to do that.
Shawn
To me it seems as you want to rail against calvinism without defending your position but that’s my opinion of the matter.
br.d
First you made statements against Arminianism which I told you I don’t promote – while so many of your responses were clearly Arminian thinking rather than Calvinist thinking. I brought this to your attention multiple times and it appears your way of dealing with it was simply to ignore it.
You then made a claim concerning Libertarian Free will. And I presented LOGICAL evidence to show you if Libertarian Free Will does not exist then you don’t have the ability to know TRUE from FALSE. You simply chose to ignore that as well. I don’t see that as a sign of a mature mind.
Shawn
One thing so profoundly taught is Gods revealed will and His secret which I believe you don’t reason.
br.d
I can’t remember if I brought up the topic of Calvinism’s doctrine of ENUNCIATED will vs the SECRET will.
But its a very simple doctrine – so I don’t see how any adult mind couldn’t easily understand it
But at this point I’m a little concerned because it seems you simply choose to ignore things you don’t want to think about.
Whether you are unwilling to think about them or you are unable to comprehend them – I’m not sure.
Brd -You then made a claim concerning Libertarian Free will. And I presented LOGICAL evidence to show you if Libertarian Free Will does not exist then you don’t have the ability to know TRUE from FALSE.
Shawn -you asked how do I know truth from error.
Answer God :9 ¶ But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
How can one be sure it’s truth and not false and we know are in the faith?
Prove it with the word of God.
2 pet 1:19 ¶ And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
If you try to understand and follow after God with human reason and not the word of God,you might as well be chasing a after rabbit’s shadow.
Brd
You then made a claim concerning Libertarian Free will. And I presented LOGICAL evidence to show you if Libertarian Free Will does not exist then you don’t have the ability to know TRUE from FALSE.
Shawn
If you try to understand and follow after God with human reason and not the word of God
br.d
I think so far this has been going over your head
Lets try an example specifically with scripture
Let’s use all of the verses you’ve quote so far.
Lets say at the foundation of the world Calvin’s god DECREED you to have FALSE perceptions of those verses.
The scripture is TRUE – but your perception of it is FALSE.
Now let’s say – you come here and start posting assertions based on your FALSE perceptions.
A FALSE perception – by definition – is a perception the person doesn’t know is FALSE.
So whenever Calvin’s god DECREES you to have a FALSE perception concerning scripture – you don’t have the ability to know that that perception is FALSE.
And since an external mind determines *ALL* of your perceptions – then it follows you don’t have the ability to know when you’ve been given a FALSE perception concerning *ANYTHING*.
Now whatever you post here will simply be an expression of the perceptions Calvin’s god has given you.
And you don’t have any way of knowing whether those perceptions are TRUE or FALSE.
CONCLUSION:
You can’t speak with authority on anything – because you have no way of knowing if what you are speaking is TRUE or FALSE.
That is a LOGICAL consequence of Theological Determinism(aka Calvinism) because it is a world in which EVERY perception you have is determined NOT BY YOURSELF but by an external mind – Calvin’s god.
Now you may argue that Calvin’s god would never give you a FALSE perception of scripture.
But then you have to answer – who DECREES the Jehovah’s witness and the Seventh Day Adventists perceptions of scripture?
Answer = Calvin’s god DECREES them to have FALSE perceptions of scripture
Do you ever have FALSE perceptions?
Answer = YES
Where did you get those FALSE perceptions?
Answer = Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world DECREED me to have them
As a follow up Shawn – because I don’t have any confidence you can THINK your way through this
Here are three statements from people you may respect:
Dr. William Lane Craig – Calvinism and the Unliveability of Determinism
-quote
Universal Divine Causal Determinism (aka Calvinism) cannot be rationally affirmed.
There is a sort of dizzying, self-defeating character to determinism. For if one comes to believe that determinism is true, one has to believe that the reason he has come to believe it is simply that he was determined to do so. One has not in fact been able to WEIGH THE ARGUMENTS pro and con and freely make up one’s mind on that basis.
The difference between the person who weighs the arguments for determinism and rejects them and the person who weighs them and accepts them is wholly that one was DETERMINED BY CAUSAL FACTORS OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF to believe and the other not to believe.
When you come to realize that your decision to believe in determinism was itself determined and that even your present realization of that fact right now is likewise determined, a sort of vertigo sets in, for everything that you think, even this very thought itself, is outside your control.
Therefore Determinism could be true; but it cannot be rationally affirmed, since its affirmation undermines the rationality of its affirmation.
-end quote
Calvinist Gregory Koukl
-quote:
The problem with determinism, is that without [Libertarian] freedom, rationality would have no room to operate. Arguments would not matter, since no one would be able to base beliefs on adequate reasons. One could never judge between a good idea and a bad one.
******One would only hold beliefs because he has been predetermined to do so. ******
Although it is theoretically possible that determinism is true…..no one could ever know if it – if it were. Everyone of our thoughts dispositions and opinions would have been decided for us by factors completely out of our control. Therefore in practice, arguments for determinism are self defeating.”
-end quote
Ravi Zacharias
-quote
Here me carefully.
If you are totally determined, then you are pre-wired, to think the way you do.
Your nature is that you are hard wired to come out to a single conclusion.
What is input into the computer is what ultimately comes out.
This is the bondage of total subjectivity.
-end quote
There must be a reason for all three of these *THINKERS* to have come to the same LOGICAL conclusion.
You can blindly brush them off by calling it “human reasoning”
But I would suggest you try to see if you can figure out the LOGIC in what they are saying – instead of blindly ignoring it.
What we never got was the true meaning of draw in John 6:44 and the argument to the article was that it can’t mean effectual drawn because of John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me.
Now we know that not every one head for head comes to Christ matter fact few do, so do we change the scripture meaning of draw or do we change our understanding of ALL MEN to match how it’s in used scripture?
All men in rarely ever means every person head for head but rather all people without distinction of race, gender, class ect . Lets look at a few.
Mark 1:37 And when they had found him , they said unto him, All men seek for thee.
Now let’s ask this was every person in the world seeking Christ, absolutely not.
All men without distinction in the local world, that will fit.
Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN.
Now had the doctrine of grace in the gospel appeared to every person in the entire world, of course not it hadn’t went as far as the local regions in Paul’s world when he wrote this, and it still not appeared to every tribe and tongue of our world today, but we can say it went to Jew,Gentile,male and female without distinction at that time.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
As previously shown draw has a effectual meaning Strong’s Definitions: †ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo’-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
All men with the distinction will be drawn to Christ and they are his elect.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Hi Shawn
I guess you decided to ignore the fact that if one brings the a foreign concept “DIVINE IRRESISTIBLE FORCE” and LOADS it onto the Greek word DRAG – then one must be consistent and also LOAD that foreign concept onto the same Greek root word/derivative DRAG OUT OF which is found in James 1:14
Thus you have sin being caused by a DIVINE IRRESISTIBLE FORCE.
I think the reason you reject that conclusion is because it doesn’t fit the doctrine.
So what we have is scriptures being used to fit doctrine – rather than doctrine derived from scripture.
You say I use “human reasoning” – when in order for you to reject this conclusion you have to use “human reasoning”.
Welcome to the club of “human reasoning” :-]
I agree Br.d you and GraceAdict articulate yourselves very well, and I appreciate it!!! I’ve been wondering why Paul talks about being in chains for the gospel? I honestly don’t think I’d feel a burden for the lost or an urgency to share the good news of the Messiah if I were a calvinist aka a determined being🤔 I know they’d never say this & I’m just talking about myself….. But why would I need to? I already know God is Amazing and doesn’t need me to do or go anywhere!!! Even though this is true that He is Amazing, yet kindly He allows us to be used by Him to spread the “good news” and it seems to me, that us noncalvinist who refute calvinism are labeled universalist/semi…__, just because we don’t believe God forces His love on His creation… but rather is a loving Father who allows a choice.. If God did not allow a choice there would be no reason to reason, nor would there be these illogical divisions within the body of Christ. As Jesus Himself said in;
Luke 11:17 NKJV — But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.
So it is illogical for His followers to be divisional however it’s for the sake of the gospel, that I see a noncalvinist’s absolute need to speak up, because His life death and resurrection are truly “good news!!!” for all who believe🌻and anything less than this sounds like a different gospel to me.
1 Timothy 4:10 NKJV — For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Why do calvinist try to persuade us of their deterministic view🤔 I may not be a theologian, but it wasn’t difficult to see the logical conclusion of who the blame was placed on in this systematic that concludes God decrees everything that comes to pass without humans having a real choice.. and that is NOT a conclusion I will ever trust!!!
Yes – I’ve been thinking about something that maybe you would comment on.
Lets say we have a Christian girl going to a grocery store – which has a reputation of shorting people at the cash register
When she gets to the register she turns on her “reasoning” hat and diligently “reasons” through the tally of each item.
She discovers they shorted her on three major items.
She points out their error and makes them fix it.
When she gets to her car she thanks the Lord for “Godly reasoning”.
When she gets home she finds here Christian parents waiting for her
They want to talk to her about her boyfriend who is violently beating her.
They “reason” that he couldn’t actually love her or his love for her is unhealthy because he is violently beating her.
She rejects their “reasoning” because she doesn’t like the conclusion.
So she tells them that they are using “human reasoning” and not “Godly reasoning” and she rejects it.
I think Calvinists do the same thing.
Whenever LOGIC brings them to a conclusion that is distasteful to them – they want to call it “human reasoning” so they can reject it.
Eventually – what they end up with is a systematic that is full of LOGICAL contradictions like the one you just sighted.
They may then appeal to mystery so they don’t have to face the contradiction.
Or they follow RH’s pattern of MAGICAL-THINKING and simply MAKE-BELIEVE there is no contradiction.
I should have added one more thing at that conclusion
They also could work to evade the contradiction – by using all sorts of gobl-de-goop language to talk their way around it.
Anything to keep them from having to acknowledge a contradiction. :-]
Br.d this abuse analogy does make sense to me it seems there is a lack of trust, because the poor girls self image is low, maybe she fears she is partly to blame (odd, but often true) and interestingly enough we are all guilty, but the logical conclusion is we’ve been given a choice to except or reject the truth. For there is One God and One mediator
1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV — who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Even when confronted or reasoned with by her parents she still chooses to not think rationally, but rather prefers to endure this abusive relationship why…
There seem to be different variables as to why some adhere to this position, but it’s good to bring it in the open. And you guys do this very well on this site & it has helped me out.. I was very glad when I finally realized there were actually other people way smarter standing up against this deterministic view.. There are many who just don’t want to talk about it and claim they don’t understand & simply say, that both positions are in the Bible. I know we should never blindly just trust what others say about God’s Word. I really like your analogy about the jehovah’s witness and the seventh day adventist too!😊
Thanks Reggie!
I always appreciate your mature, well developed, and thoughtful comments!
You are appreciated! :-]
Amen, Shawn.
I agree with every post.
Also, in the light of Psalms 10:4, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18 and John 3:19-20, there is no such “animal” as “libertarian free will”.
Man’s will is clearly biased against God.
Therefore, it cannot be free and unbiased, since God’s word describes a condition that permeates us as men.
We hate God ( Romans 1:30 ) and sin from birth ( Psalms 58:2-3 ).
We are estranged from Him, from the womb.
God bless you sir.
Welcome navair2
Thanks for your posts & videos. A friend of mine reminded me of them recently as he regularly watches & is blessed by them. It’s the middle of the night but I felt the urge to say thank you for your work.
Theology of who God is, His “God-nality”, as you line-by-line/verse-by-verse study or teach God’s word (the Bible) is consistent and applicable to how we can relate and engage Him in a relationship, rather than just in religious practice. Just ask inductive questions of ‘What does this scripture show me about God, His thoughts, actions, or attributes. These types of comprehensive questions begin to show all those thin red strings that connect through the whole Bible of His great purposes and rescue plan for us. John 3:16 alone shows that God comes in action of grasping towards every person ever made while creating an environment of us freely choosing back Him. 2 Peter 3:9 shows God’s heart for all to come to Him. Acts 17:27 shows how when people grope for Him, desire Him, He makes a way for them to know Him no matter where they are on the planet. Ephesians, as well as many other places, solidify all these concepts together in the Old and New Testament alike giving the example of marriage. It’s like a man meeting his bride. He chooses her, and she chooses him. God chooses us and we choose Him. This is clearly taught throughout scripture without debate. The great part is that God doesn’t just leave it as just this choice for us, but romances us. Romances us toward Himself. A hard part for us to accept is that we can also reject Him. People reject His advances toward them. Nations, to include an entire nation of people, can reject Him at times trying to not even allow Him to send people into their borders. This deals with their hardness of heart towards Him and His rescue plan shown in play since Genesis 3:15 promise of the Savior.
Don’t get hung up on time. Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning…” shows the creation of time itself. God is greater than time, beyond time, outside of time as well as in all-time at one time…past, present, future alike. This is why Jesus could die once on the cross and it can be applicable to all who are in the past, present, and future. But unlike God, we are riders through the time process of the creation of the Bride…this created bride in which we, Christians, are the cells of. He told us His election process of this accomplished Bride consist of those who would repent and freely chose Him back- by His grace, through the vehicle of our faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Faith is the vehicle, not our merit. His grace alone is the power for the capability of salvation. Just as moving forward on a Luke 17 mustard seed of faith (a faith tricycle) to follow God’s ways can impact and uproot even the greatest most difficult ancient mulberry deep-rooted relationship barriers, so it can as well be the vehicle to bring us to a saving knowledge and personal relationship with Him. God makes the way so that anyone who chooses to step into the vehicle of faith can freely come as He calls out to them. In Luke 17, disciples begged God for an armored faith tank…but Jesus responds by simply replying that all we need to have is the capacity to move forward squeaky tricycle style! He does the rest as we act in our responsibility to respond to Him. We are the elect, who are chosen, who choose Him with no mysterious contradictions to overcome. This is not a mystery of God…this is being saved by faith through His grace provided by His vast love.
Calvinism & Arminianism are both tainted wrong traditions making certain attributes of God larger than they are to contradict His other attributes. How about instead we be named Christian and follow Christ who does the saving through what the Bible actually state instead of claim to be named after a man who can’t save a single soul.
Thanks again for the hard work God uses you to do.
-Mike Scordato, PhD.
Hi Mike S…
GA:
You have a great post…I wish you would post more. Thanks for your insights.
Keep up the encouraging posts.
Have an awesome New Year and may you experience God’s Grace more and more in your life throughout 2020.
Praying for you brother….this message of God’s truly amazing Grace needs to get out more and more to the glory of God.
Calvinism is distorting the nature of The Holy, Loving, Merciful and Truth telling God of the Bible.
Dr. Flowers, please tell me if i am allowed to translate your material into romanian language, and post it on my blog,so many people will benefit? Thank you very much for your teachings.
Hello crinaionimatei and welcome
I’ve forwarded your question directly to Dr. Flowers.
Hopefully he will get back to you soon.
Sincere thanks!
br.d
Hello crinaionimatei,
If Dr. Flowers hasn’t had the chance to reply to you – I can tell you that anything that is offered free online is free to translate and use.
So please feel free to go ahead and do so.
Our sincere thanks – and God bless you!