by Leighton Flowers & Eric Kemp
Often we hear the objection that God is not obligated to have mercy on anyone. That’s true. However, the fact that God is not obligated to be merciful towards all people is what makes the display of His mercy to all people so amazingly gracious and abundantly glorious. That God does what He is not obligated to do for no other reason than He desires to be merciful to all is glorious.
Anyone suggesting this display of mercy isn’t genuine (or that’s it’s just an outward/external “prescriptive” will of God, but that His real secret desire is only to show mercy to a preselected few) is diminishing the abundance of His mercy and the glory of His grace extended to every person.
Also, I think sometimes there is an assumption that mercy is weakness. But that could not be further from the truth. Mercy can only be handed down by someone in a place of judgement over another. If it is not within my power to pass condemnation on someone, then it is also not within my power to have mercy on them. Mercy is an expression of power, not of weakness.
“The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.” -Ps 145:8-9
“For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” -Rom 11:32
Excellent!
And it is just as truthful to say that there is no obligation to DESIGN the “MANY” for eternal torment in a lake of fire.
And that is why John Calvin says it is -quote “for his good pleasure”.
Great article, BUT I take some issue with the way this is stated. I.e., It WAS true that God *was* not obligated to have mercy on anyone, but that ceased to be true the instant that God by His own written decree obligated Himself to show mercy to all by making it known to us in His written revelation. So once the revelation came to us and we became aware that God has decreed it so that He will have mercy on all, then we can no longer conclude that it is ever possible again (at least from that point in our time) that He ‘is’ not obligated to have mercy on anyone. This is difficult to understand because there are Scripture passages that state the apparent opposite as well. But I take offense at Calvinist brethren who keep making a big point that ‘God can do anything He wants to do – He is under no obligation to do anything…’ That is such a misrepresentation of who God has declared Himself to be – sounds more like Allah doesn’t it? God has narrowed the scope down considerably by His own doing. The Gospel is a narrow path. Jesus is the ONLY way. This is very exclusive. God cannot and will not operate outside of such boundaries and others that He Himself has imposed “just because He is God.” This is what is so unique about the God of the Bible in my view. If He were not this way, He would be Allah – a dictator, unloving, and capricious. So… I wish you would clarify this and deal a bit more accurately with this conundrum sir! I enjoy your writeups – excellent and thought provoking!
One of the conundrums I wrestle with perennially is whether, in fact, God is unavoidably beholden to His nature. For a person to state “God -can- do anything He pleases” is to beg the Q whether then God can act capriciously, or unjustly, or in any manner or matter contrary to His nature. If He is unavoidably (and necessarily) beholden to His nature, then a possible Deterministic/Physicalist conundrum entails. Hard wrestlings, which force me to therefore appeal to His mercy, in everything. (To clarify, I would never be so crass as to assert — as I have heard posited — that God is a ‘slave’ to His nature…a circular and irreverent conjecture at best…)
My preferred conclusion is to allow that God’s nature is to always act, volitionally, in accordance with His nature, which is necessarily perfect…circular, yes, but God alone is “allowed” (ahem…) to be self-justifying and self-affirming.
Mercy, Father, on my finite, addled, overthinking brain…
Hello Raymond and welcome
God fulfills His own standard, perfectly, We are never without 2 witnesses or 3, true and evidential for things we know we can believe.
Amen! And Paul reminds us of this universal love that is reaching out in mercy for all, even the rebellious. And God is not play-acting.
Romans 10:21 NKJV — But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
Which is why after 40 years of struggling with the inherent contradictions in ALL modern denominational takes on salvation, especially this battle between Calvinism and everyone else, I became a Christian Universalist. CU answers ALL the false dichotomies elegantly and most important SCRIPTURALLY. I challenge you to do a serious study of CU, (lets say take 6 months of reading and pondering).
CU answers all the questions. Scripturally. Unforturnately most people for some reason are afraid to believe that God is Love, that he would never act unjustly or cruely, and that Jesus DIED FOR ALL.
Pharisees.
That’s your choice, Theophilus, to believe a false teaching that ignores too many things clearly taught in Scripture and that were clearly understood by the original authors and readers of it. Take 6 months of reading just Scripture and it will convince you of God’s promised everlasting punishment.
CU doesn’t fit with clear Scriptures, nor does it fit the concept of justice as defined by God for those who are freely rejecting His grace.
I’m assuming they even think Satan will finally come to His senses and get saved. The question of how a free will like Satan’s does what doesn’t “make sense” in light of available truth is also necessary to answer for understanding why a human couldn’t live in perpetual hardness forever.
And then there’s the question why doesn’t God throw Satan or others into hell right now if it will hasten their submission to His grace? And why is their suffering for their sins in hell not a clear rejection of Christ’s sufficient payment for all sin?
Hello Theophilus and welcome
Agreed! that is your choice, Theophilus, to believe something so far off from the truth. The fact that Christ speaks of the destinies of men after the final judgment as either, “everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”, and “everlasting punishment”, or as “eternal life” (Matthew 25:41, 46). It is interesting that the same Greek word (aionion) “eternal” is used in v. 46 for both the eternal life of the saved and the eternal punishment of the condemned. This Greek word aionion certainly has the same meaning in both parts of v. 46. Those who are willing to hear the truth will not turn around and say, “the unrighteous will go away into a temporary age-long punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”. Jesus is the final authority on this matter, and He is not out to confuse or deceive people. If the life of the righteous is truly everlasting, then so must be the punishment of the unrighteous. To not warn people that they are heading towards the edge of a cliff, would be totally uncaring and unloving. And it seems that no one warned us more about hell in the N.T. than Jesus did.
Only man’s pride could make him think that he is more just and loving than God is!
The Spirit Of God proclaims hope and warning , preparing us ahead of time, Jesus Christ having told John to write down the things that are now and are to come.
Rev 11: { the 2 witnesses are “lamp stands”}
7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit[a] will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt,{ note: now the world in view, Jesus having been crucified in this world } where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The Spirit of God recapitulates, from a different perspective and angle of justice and mercy on the day of wrath:
Rev 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings,[c] peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. 21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds[d] each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.
A friend speaks the truth about God’s love and warning.
You are free to believe as you wish, but the truth is God does not reveal to us the gift of salvation is received by all people as if universally all are saved. Instead, God reveals universal payment has been offered, Him having paid in full for all human flesh , that one must believe in their age in history according to faith. We are the age without excuse to confess Jesus Christ , as the mystery has been revealed. God’s promise is He will give the Holy Spirit without measure to all who seek, knock and ask Him, not refusing to love the truth.
If someone denies what God reveals as sin, and therefore, will not repent of sin in their unbelief, then they are seeking their own standard of what is and is not just. God has granted us freedom to worship, having granted us the evidence of truth. (Romans 1- God grants us the knowledge of what it is to follow our sinful desires, which lead further into a depraved mind. God reveals to us such behavior is to reject what He has made evident and are without excuse. Romans 2 reveals to us about those who speak judgement who do the same thing.)If there is no admittance, choosing denial of truth, about what God reveals to be sin , then there is no sin confessed in order for mercy to be applied. Such a human lawmaker demands justice , apart from mercy. They insult the Spirit of grace , offered to cover over sin, according to God’s greater law of faith.
What is the only sin will not forgiven ?
Our father and mother ,after sinning in the garden, after the Murderer’s deception, blamed God but also felt and acted ashamed. Our parents did not refuse the Spirit of grace and choose to curse God: God made skins and covered their shame. They did not refuse the truth of the matter. It is easy to deduct there was a sacrifice, a victim put to death because of their sin , blood was shed. They did not refuse the truth of the skin given for their covering.
God is perfectly just and merciful, about either He will not be mocked.
A friend tells a neighbor the truth that they may see and hear, that they might be saved. God already prepared us, we would lose the popularity contest . John 17 ( both the religious politic and the empire politic crucified Jesus)
1 Corinthians 15: *1-4 – to the end verses*
Our present enemy is still sin and timely death. Me, you and our neighbor face these everyday before the Lord returns:
The Spirit of Jesus called Lazarus by name- Titled, the rich man, he was in suffering.
This and what followed was not a parable , but a revelation for us, beyond the veil of what we cannot see. God desires mercy over justice, as it relates to reality as He has revealed it, preparing us ahead of time, to hear and see the truth. Proclaiming life over sin and death, do not deny the truth… love your neighbor.
( blessed are the poor in spirit)
I love the picture and writing on the picture. Great Article.
Rom 5:20 …But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
The Calvinists’ view is that God’s Grace is measured out with a tiny teaspoon, Instead it is a tidal wave of MUCH MORE grace.
“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text.”
Romans 10:21 NKJV — But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
We must consider this part of the text very carefully, because these words are used to overthrow all that the apostle has been teaching. The explanation goes like this. God stood before a rebellious and gainsaying people with outstretched arms. Those arms are a symbol of God’s general will to save everyone, including the gainsaying and rebellious people. And if that is so, some argue there is no doctrine of election and reprobation. Similarly, there are Reformed people who confess the doctrine of election, but this text, they say, shows that there is also a general will in God to save all, and we must accept both. They call this a “mystery.” But we reject a general will of God to save all. We cannot overthrow all that we have learned in Romans 9 and 10 and all that we will be taught in Romans 11.
Does it teach anything like a general will of God to save all? It does if the outstretched arms mean that God says to these rebellious and gainsaying people, “I sincerely desire to save you all.” But this is contrary to the gospel. Nowhere does Scripture teach that the outstretched arms symbolize God’s readiness to save all. The meaning of the outstretched arms is that God is willing to receive and (save all who come to Him.)
Only those who in the context of this same chapter “who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved” But the Gospel is going to be preached (and that is the symbolism of “God stretching out His hands indiscriminately all day to a disobedient and contrary people.) From this group who hear the outward call of the gospel and are taught inwardly by the Spirit they “Will call upon the name of the Lord and be saved”
John 6: 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Verse 45 says everyone who has HEARD AND HAS LEARNED from the father will come to Jesus. Verse 44 strengthens this truth of Scripture.
Romans 11:2 – 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew…..
Romans 11:4- 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
So within context this verse of the surrounding and immediate context of Romans 10 and Romans 11 is Romans 10:21 to be understood. Not in and of and by itself.
Well I guess I will use a few proof texts myself. But I will not be dogmatic about them but allow you guys to respond and I give you my word I will listen with honesty
Proverbs 16:4 – The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 11:36 – For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Ephesians 1: 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth–in Him
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
I have always found Ephesians 1 and verses 10 and 11 troubling for Non-Calvinists. Many want to say Ephesians 1 is about Corporate Election and that could not be about those Elected from all eternity because they did not exist. I have read arguments that make me disagree with this. There are other arguments that say what was chosen is by God is not the “us” the “blessings” of us being “holy and blameless” I have never found this to be very convincing.
There is no doubt that verse 11 is talking being predestined to Salvation. Because that has been the context. But it goes on to say in addition that “God works not only Salvation but “all things (in a absolute and universal sense) according to the counsel of His will.)
Now this is also in the context of Ephesians 1 as we read in Ephesians 1:10 when it speaks of God gathering together in one all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN AND WHICH ARE ON EARTH IN HIM.
Now, I stand in limbo on all of this. I see these verses as somewhat compelling but not dogmatic as I know there are alternate understandings.
Eric Kemp uses this verse here: ““The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.” -Ps 145:8-9”
This is nothing more than innate God’s benevolence and goodness that he shows to all. The sun and the rain shine upon the just and the unjust. I is just God’s very nature.
It is not speaking of God’s saving grace.
Then Eric Kemp speaks of this verse: ““For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” -Rom 11:32”
We all know the difference of understanding here. It is one of provision made potential and effectual grace that applies that provision effectually. Not of all or that would be universalism. But of all that God has chosen. The Non-Calvinism believes it is there for the taking to all who will exercise there LFW and with human innate faith believe.
Hi JUSKLNTIME2442,
I’ll give my take on Ephesians 1:10-11 as a non-Calvinist.
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
The “all things” in verse 11 is the same as the “all things” in verse 10. The phrase “all things” doesn’t always mean all things in general but to all things pertaining to the context, whereby this context is “all thing in Christ”. This is a reference to the “spiritual blessings in heavenly places” (Verse 3) that a believer has being in Christ.
In this sense like the Apostle Paul, I can say that I am crucified with Christ. Was I? No. Because I wasn’t there, but in a spiritual sense I was.
I can say that I am seated in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) Am I? No. Because I’m not there yet, but in a spiritual sense I am.
I can say that I was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Was I? No. because I wasn’t there, but in a spiritual sense I was.
Jesus was the one Crucified not me, but I get to benefit in what was bestowed upon Him through faith.
Jesus is the one who is seated in heavenly places not me, but I get to benefit in what is bestowed upon Him through faith.
Jesus was the one who was chosen before the foundation of the world not me, but I get to benefit in what was bestowed upon Him through faith –
See John 17:24 – “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: FOR THOU LOVEDST ME before the foundation of the world”
See 1 Peter 1:19-20 – …”But with the precious blood of CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: WHO WAS VERILY FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD but was manifest in these last times for you” 1 Peter 1:19-20.
See Mathew 12:18 quoting the Lord’s words from the book of Isaiah about Christ – “Behold MY SERVANT, WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles”
We enter into all these spiritual blessings the moment we put our trust in Christ for salvation.
The passage is not saying that there was a selection process before the foundation of the world where God was picking out only some to be believers and not others.
The passage is saying that before the foundation of the world God’s perfect plan is that all in Christ will enjoy every spiritual blessing or inheritance that was bestowed upon Jesus Christ, past, present, and future.
Yes, part of that inheritance is salvation. But you are not “In Christ” and never were in a literal sense before you believed – See Eph. 1:13 &
Romans 16:7 – 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, WHO ALSO WERE IN CHRIST BEFORE ME.
Thanks Jusklintime2442.
Damon.
Hello Damon and welcome
Psalms 94:23 – He has brought back their wickedness upon them And will destroy them in their evil; The LORD our God will destroy them.
Psalms 11:5 – The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. NKJV
“The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.” -Ps 145:8-9
I am just saying we can throw all the love verses in the mix we want and try to dismiss and ignore the justice and it seems the hatred of God in whatever sense that it meant. But there is more to this Eternal God than this I think “well meant” but on the surface article that is really targeting Calvinism than trying to identify the true God of the Scriptures to strengthen the faith of believers in the God of the Salvation.
But in saying that I also understand that is the purpose of this site. To disprove Calvinism. So I do understand the purpose behind the article in that sense but think it is lacking in that it does not test the Scriptures closely enough.
As usual, I am open to rebuke and being corrected in a cordial way. But before you do. Look at the other Scriptures and ask yourself if they are also true of God and know that they could be multiplied in abundance as much as the love/mercy Scriptures. I think we try to split God up to much instead of letting God be God. Of course that is due to our limited ability to understand God infinitely. He is the God who will have mercy upon whom he desires to have mercy and he will harden whom he will harden. And there are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
We have on one side, Calvinists who claim that God is merciful but only to a few, (unless you want to talk about sunshine and rain being granted to all as the kind of weak mercy God has) and on the other side we have Universalists who claim God is merciful to all in that everyone will be saved in the end, no matter if they have lived as children of God or not. Neither of these views capture the infinite mercy, love and character of God as He works to bring an end to sin and sinful people along with their father, Satan, for all time. One view denies His infinite mercy and the other denies His infinite justice.
test
There once was a puppeteer who designed a new puppet show containing a vast array of puppets.
Most of the puppets were designed to be thrown into a lake of fire – which was to be a part of the shows finally.
During ACT-1, there is a scene in which the puppeteer speaks to one of the puppets and commands him not to sin.
Then in ACT-2 he has that puppet do the very thing he commanded it not to.
Scenes like that are designed to make a puppet *APPEAR* more realistic.
AS-IF a puppet could “DO OTHERWISE” than what the puppeteer determined it to do.
But of course – that is what makes puppet shows interesting! :-]
1. Calvinists says that the fallen MAN HAS NO OBLIGATION to contribute to the Salvation that is freely given by God them. It is God who decides as to whom He is going to offer the gift. It is God the Father who decides as to whom He will draw to the Son.
2. The offer was served to all as per instructed by the King yet, upon reaching the wedding feast, the one who was not dressed in white was rejected and was cast out of the darkness. This man was invited by the servants to go with them in the feast, yet it was the King who decides as to whom He will offer the white garment for them to be able to enter in. The non-Calvinists side may protest loudly to this act done by the King and yet God is not accountable to anyone else because it is God who is above all and is immutably supreme in all.
3. Salvation is not doing our best. It is having Christ’s best being put into our own account. A Genuine gift is unconditional without any string attach.
4. Salvation was God’s idea not man’s. God was the first one who took the initiative to look for Adam and Eve in the garden after they had fallen into sin. It was not man who took the initiative to seek God for they hid themselves before God.
5. The apostle Paul and God’s servants of today have an obligation to preach the gospel, yet it is still God who decides as to whom He will unblind or draw to the Son for them to be able to see the truth. Christ is the one who saves, not the preachers of the gospel nor the audience themselves.
jtleosala
1. Calvinists says that the fallen MAN HAS NO OBLIGATION to contribute to the Salvation that is freely given by God them. It is God who decides as to whom He is going to offer the gift. It is God the Father who decides as to whom He will draw to the Son.
br.d
Well all of that is pretty much theater once one understands Calvin’s god specifically DESIGNS the vast majority of people for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
As John Calvin says:
-quote
“They are doomed from the womb”.
jtleosala
2. The offer was served to all as per instructed by the King yet, upon reaching the wedding feast, the one who was not dressed in white was rejected and was cast out of the darkness. etc.
br.d
This is where Calvin’s god – at the foundation of the world – determines which ones would not be dressed.
As we understand – In Theological Determinism ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is UP TO the creature.
jtleosala
3. Salvation is not doing our best. It is having Christ’s best being put into our own account. A Genuine gift is unconditional without any string attach.
br.d
Of course there are strings attached
Every puppeteer uses strings of some kind to control his puppets
But we know – the Calvinist is not supposed to acknowledge the strings! :-]
jtleosala
4. Salvation was God’s idea not man’s.
br.d
I think its safe to say – DESIGNING the vast majority of man – specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – is probably not man’s idea :-]
jtleosala
God was the first one who took the initiative to look for Adam and Eve in the garden after they had fallen into sin.
br.d
Calvin’s god commands Adam to not sin
While SECRETLY applying a supernatural power to MAKE him sin.
Where can I sign up for that! :-]
jtleosala
5. The apostle Paul and God’s servants of today have an obligation to preach the gospel,
br.d
This would be ACT-3 in the puppet show – where the evangelist puppets go around preaching – to the “MANY” puppets who are DESIGNED for the lake of fire – and the “FEW” puppets who are not.
jtleosala
yet it is still God who decides as to whom He will unblind or draw to the Son for them to be able to see the truth. Christ is the one who saves, not the preachers of the gospel nor the audience themselves.
br.d
Yes – that would be ACT-4 of the puppet show.
The audience is not supposed to know they are also DESIGNED to function as puppets :-]
Is “Puppet on a String” one of your songs you sing in church to Calvin’s god? It goes something like this:
I may win on the roundabout
Then I’ll lose on the swings
In or out, there is never a doubt
Just who’s pulling the strings
I’m all tied up to you
But where’s it leading me to?
Very nice!
Great rhyme Aidan. :-]
Its from an old British Eurovision winner back in 1967. I never liked the song, nor did the singer Sandie Shaw. Come to think of it, other than ABBA and Riverdance, I can’t think of anything much good that came out of the Eurovision song contest. And that’s saying a lot, because I barely liked ABBA. If only ‘Springsteen’ was Irish.
JTLEOSALA said:
5. The apostle Paul and God’s servants of today have an obligation to preach the gospel, yet it is still God who decides as to whom He will unblind or draw to the Son for them to be able to see the truth. Christ is the one who saves, not the preachers of the gospel nor the audience themselves.
Glad you believe that those who believe have an obligation to preach the gospel, which is the message that fallen mankind CANNOT contribute to his/her salvation.
Those who believe trust only in the work of God. We do not insult the Spirit of Grace.
1 Corinthians 15:*1-4/Ephesians 1 and 2:* grace being favor that cannot be merited
This is God’s revelation, according to the Holy Spirit, His instructions given in the world according to how He so loved: revealed NT in accordance with the prophetic OT scriptures as the WAY of the “I AM” revealed them John 3:12-21
Calvin overstated his view by trying to explain how God instructs over salvation, by working out his own understanding of how he saw the plan of salvation must philosophically work. So, basically, he turned to instruct over what God has revealed, beyond what scripture reveals.
But you are free to believe as you wish. I believe the good news, I will defend the good news and contend for the faith as it was entrusted to those who believe.
Do you believe this and can you repeat that this is how we who believe are being saved? Can you repeat this is the good news apart from Calvinist determinism?1 Corinthians 15: *1-4 ( see all 15 for the promise and victory won, to include the rebuke of Paul to the Corinthians who have only one reason to even be gathering: the good news) God knows the heart and mind the moment we believe His good news and He crosses us over from death to life, gifted this regeneration we are born again of the Spirit, sealed by Him.
1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”[d] 34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
——————
When a ‘Corinthian man’s’ choice of intoxication is to be drunk on our theologies and are not willing to be baptized in sufferings to reach our neighbor(=the dead) it looks like this:
“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.” – Calvin’s letter to Farel on 24 July
“Servetus offers to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.” – Letter to Farel, 13 February 1546
“Servetus . . . suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies?”
{Kinda reminds me how quick those of the church looked like the Pharisees, Scribes, Essenes, and Sadducees: the hopeful turning(deceived) wanting yet another religious politic, the pride of men about their own teachings or to ‘save the truth’ from other men.
And we know Luther ‘s later teaching, too.
Rev 1-3}
————–
Note: Paul was repeating the gospel to the Corinthian assembly. Why was he repeating the good news to them, following the context of the first chapter through to 15? Yes, he was admonishing them!
Yes, I tend to believe that Calvin was like David(guilt of murder), a faithful believer, caught up in his own thinking. But, I could be wrong: God knows if Calvin really believed. I proclaim I do. I am trusting in nothing but the grace of God and the body and blood shed for the sins of mankind, which covers over me in love. I am not ashamed of the gospel. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. I am in no way depending on the works of Calvin, nor the part of His message I am ashamed of: as it is works against those of us preaching the good news in the Spirit of Truth.
Together, may this generation call out in prayer similar to Daniel 9, in our generation of ‘ HIs People’. Who has not been guilty? Do we hear how many unbelievers are in the church? Rev 1-3
“For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.” Eph 3:14-19
This is my prayer for all Calvinists, who have not the power to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of God. Instead, they kneel before a false god, who has only a puny, limited, arbitrary, narcissistic self-love, and creates, manipulates, uses and discards people as nothing but disposable tools to be used for his own purposes. I deeply pity such people, and pray that God grant them the power to see the true breadth of the immeasurable, incomparable, boundless love of God.
Death is exclusive, all in human flesh are already included.
Those who have the ability of faith, given to mankind in the beginning, are free to love death or Life.(Romans 5/Hebrews 11)
Come!
All can be included in Life!
Those who must truly come to believe and love God will not be excluded from life everlasting!
God exclusively holds the power of life and death, having revealed the mystery He wants to include us in Life!
About all that is made available, paid in full by God, He judges with equal measures and weights on the balance.
What human can claim no need to be covered over by the Forgiver of our sins?
Those who love Life have been entrusted to compel everybody until He decides His house is full.
Luke 14:23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.
Revelation 22:16-18
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
To His Glory He has chosen to glorify all those who will be resurrected to life according to His Glory. JesusChrist is The Mediator who has revealed the Spirit of Truth,
For those who do not believe in vain, will contend and repeat this truth of first importance: 1 Corinthians 15
( Following the example, of those faithful to believe, it is our free will offering.This, according to scripture.)
TSOO posted this one:
“This is my prayer for all Calvinists, who have not the power to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of God. Instead, they kneel before a false god, who has only a puny, limited, arbitrary, narcissistic self-love, and creates, manipulates, uses and discards people as nothing but disposable tools to be used for his own purposes. I deeply pity such people, and pray that God grant them the power to see the true breadth of the immeasurable, incomparable, boundless love of God.”
——-My Response——–
You may also include in your prayers the salvation of the residents of Canaan whom God wiped out to death including their sucklings without giving them even a very little chance to come back to God (except the adulterous woman who kept the spies sent by Joshua). Let’s see if your prayers will work. Our prayers must always be aligned to the cadence of the Will of God.
I guess that you are charging that this God whom Joshua served is a false god based on your post.
If God really loves all people, then why do you ignore this and keep on telling Universal love offered to all for Salvation? Aside from this, is the creation for vessels for honor and vessels destined for wrath.
This verse was quoted in the portal of this thread:
“For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” -Rom 11:32
——My Response——-
If God was the one who do the bounding to disobedience of all humans, then who can unlock this binding? Can man has the capacity to unlock himself for him to be able to seek God and be saved? or the preacher of the gospel to do the unlocking? The “Pelagians” can do it for themselves , but the sad thing is that God never recognize them. The apostle Paul have said: “There is non righteous, no not one. There is none who seek God”
Jesus Christ said: “No one can come to the Father except the Father will draw them to the Son. God the Father’s decision on whom He will (pick-up) to draw to the Son makes the other camp to invent the term “Calvin’s god” and make it as a laughing stuff for themselves. Christ is very dogmatic in this verse (John 6:44), saying that No one can come except he is drawn by the Father to the Son.
The (same) seed has been sown to all types of soil (entire humanity) yet only the seeds that fell on the good soil prospers to the end. All the rest are failures and are doomed to hell.
But Jesus commanded them to work for it.
John 6:27 – NASB: “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Aidan McManus posted this one:
“But Jesus commanded them to work for it.
John 6:27 – NASB: “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
——–My Response——-
1. “The Son of Man” in the verse refers to Jesus Christ which says that Jesus Christ is the bestower of that food which endures to eternal life. It does not say that man is more than greater than Christ for them to be able to produce on their own “food”. “Food” that perishes according to Christ Himself.
2. If man will attempt to produce “food” on their own then, why there is still a need for Christ to work for it on the cross when man can do it for themselves?
3. Why did God command them to “work for it?” – The “command” implies to us that man has to align his will with the cadence of God’s will since that God wanted them to act naturally that way, though sometimes God has an option to tamper their will due to their disobedience (God’s act of regenerating, pruning the branches, Disciplining His children —this is not “double speak” since that Scriptures affirm both of this and is not subjected to the rules of logic. Scripture is authoritative than logic and human philosophy). Just like human parents, God is pictured as the one that decide for their children to protect them from evil harm that might destroy them.
4. It is God who started a “good work in the believers” and God Himself will finish that work until Christ comes back according to Phil.1:6
5. Pelagians or Semi-Pelagians always incorporate man’s work to the achievement of God’s gift of Salvation. Calvinists strongly rejects that heretic doctrine. We always say that Salvation belongs to God. Man has no whatsoever part in it. It was God who worked for it and it is freely given to those whom the Father will draw to the Son, while the Son promised not to cast out those whom the Father will give Him.
jtleosala
The “command” implies to us that man has to align his will with the cadence of God’s will
br.d
Now this is an excellent example of Calvinism’s DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS
In Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) Calvin’s god is the SOLE determiner of man’s will
Calvin’s god – at the foundation of the world – determines *ALL*
Leaving ZERO left over for man to determine.
A theology of married-bachelors, square-circles, and double-speak is Holy Spirit inspired?
Excellent Br.d,
Your post here really exposes it for what it is. Keep shining that spotlight – it works really well.
jtleosala
Pelagians or Semi-Pelagians always incorporate man’s work to the achievement of God’s gift of Salvation
br.d
I wonder why Calvin’s god – at the foundation of the world – decrees so many Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians!
Doesn’t he know better!?! :-]
Hi JT,
And yet Jesus commanded them to work for the food which endures to eternal life.
John 6:27 – NASB: “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Notice how it is both a work and a gift. First He tells them to “work” for the food which endures to eternal life, and then, “which the Son of Man will give to you.” Hence, it is both a work and a gift. Just because its a gift, doesn’t mean we don’t have to work for it. Does man not have to work for the food which perishes? And yet it too is a gift from God who sends rain from heaven, fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness (Acts 14:17). The provision is there for man as a joyful gift from above. If we want to live, we must be prepared to work, not simply for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life: Which the Son of Man will give to you, if you are willing!
Hi Aidan,
I find it helpful to remember the difference between LAW and GRACE.
Jesus was born under the law, HE ministered under the LAW, HE taught under the law to people who were still under the LAW.
HE also fulfilled the LAW in our place, so that HE could be the perfect sacrifice and take our place. GRACE is having His Righteousness imputed to us, means we are seen as if WE had truly fulfilled it ourselves. This is the message of Grace.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, coming into being out of a woman, having come UNDER Law,
Gal 4:5 that He might redeem THOSE UNDER Law, so that we might receive the adoption of sons.
READ these verses slowly. Notice that Believing is NOT considered a work in this passage dealing with Salvation.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that our father Abraham has found, according to flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him NOT WORKING, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness WITHOUT WORKS,
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we WERE held captive UNDER the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we ARE NO LONGER under a guardian,
Paul had a sober warning to those who still wanted to incorporate the LAW into the Gospel he says:
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Paul is saying if you want to incorporate the LAW or parts of the LAW for your salvation you MUST ACTUALLY DO them. Not just do your best you must actually accomplish them. James also tells us:
Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
If the LAW is going to be part of your salvation package, scripture says it is not enough to love the law, or get it 98% correct you and I must DO it ALL because failure in one point = becoming guilty of ALL. The function of the law was to show us our failure and need of the savior Jesus Christ.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, THROUGH faith.
Rom 4:5 But to him NOT WORKING, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness WITHOUT WORKS,
Paul goes on to state that Mixing LAW and GRACE does NOT work. Once you mix a little bit of law you left the GRACE teaching of the NEW TESTAMENT. In the first Century Some wanted to mix just a little bit of law, in fact just one thing, one tiny, one time act along side of GRACE and Paul said you can not do that. You cannot pick and choose what parts of the LAW you like best. The law is one long chain of obligations, once you pick up one of the links in the chain called LAW you have picked up the whole chain, you are now OBLIGATED to KEEP ALL of it…not just do you best…your obligation is to actually KEEP it. Here is Paul’s words:
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
GraceAdict, thank you for your response to my post on John 6:27.
I think I will have to clarify where I’m coming from on that passage. First of all, I agree with your sentiments that we are not saved “out of” works, or, “on the basis of” a law of works. Since all have sinned, the only thing that a law of works could do is condemn us. And, no amount of works can negate the sins we’ve committed. Therefore the “source” of our salvation, the forgiveness of our sins, is of God through His Son, and in His Son.
Having said that, let us be reminded what problems the early church faced concerning the Jews and their insistence on keeping the law. Consequently in Romans and Galatians, Paul is having to contrast two systems of justification. One system, namely the law, had to do with a system of justification based on works, which meant that one had to keep it perfectly in order to live. The Jews sought to establish their own righteousness based on the works of the law. In view of the fact that all had sinned, the Jews were making a terrible mistake trying to seek righteousness, as it were, by works. Christ was now the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Rom. 10:1-4). When one hears Paul saying, “NOT OF WORKS,” he is not condemning works per se, nor is he trying to exclude “works of faith” from salvation in Christ. Instead, Paul is condemning the Jews for seeking to be justified and made righteous, PURELY on the basis of works. This meant that the Jews had EXCLUDED FAITH in Christ as the basis for seeking righteousness, causing them to stumble at the stumbling stone! Do not make the common mistake in reading Romans thinking that Paul had excluded “works of faith.” Paul was not talking about works of faith, Paul was talking about works NOT based on faith in Romans.
Therefore, when Jesus tells them, “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you,” is He calling on them to earn their salvation on the basis of works? I don’t think so! Yet He still commands them to work for it. Therefore, work for it they must, as do we! But if He commands it, and we do it because He commanded it, then it is by faith we do it. If you’ve missed the parallel between having to work for the food which perishes, and for the food which endures to eternal life, then you won’t be able to understand both as a gift of God. Naaman had to be dipped seven times in the Jordan before he could be cleansed. Did he earn it, or was it still a gift from GOD who had told him what to do? Heb. 5:9 NKJV: “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.” I have no problem in reconciling God’s grace with what He has commanded to avail of that grace, through faith in His Son.
jtleosala
If God was the one who do the bounding to disobedience of all humans, then who can unlock this binding?
br.d
In Theological Determinism – there is no such thing as the creature being in disobedience to the SECRET will.
So in Theological Determinism the “disobedience” spoken of here would be “disobedience” to the ENUNCIATED will.
And when the ENUNCIATED will – is in direct opposition to the SECRET will –
functions as a FALSE REPRESENTATION of the SECRET will.
Which turns the whole affair pretty mush a theater show.
jtleosala
Can man has the capacity to unlock himself for him to be able to seek God and be saved?
br.d
Man seek Calvin’s god – without Calvin’s god *MAKING* him do it?
I don’t think so :-]
jtleosala
The “Pelagians” can do it for themselves , but the sad thing is that God never recognize them.
br.d
Calvin’s god – at the foundation of the world makes Pelagians – and then doesn’t recognize what he has made?
Perhaps there is something wrong with his brain? :-]
BR.D Your comments are always so clear and revealing. Thanks for exposing the false thinking behind JT’s arguments.
By the way JTL – I do respect how consistent you try to be with your theology. I simply disagree with it. I respect you sir.
An honest conversation is much better than hiding behind deceptive terminology.
JTLEOSALA says:This verse was quoted in the portal of this thread:
“For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” -Rom 11:32
response:
Context; Jew and Gentile, now the mystery revealed, has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he MAY have mercy on them all.”
This does not support the CU who proof text this verse to claim all will be saved.
=====
JTLEOSALA said: If God was the one who do the bounding to disobedience of all humans, then who can unlock this binding?
response:The mystery is revealed- Romans 5
Mankind was created with a common sense: the ability to think for a reason. Being bound to disobedience brings recognition:*
Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
———–
JTLEOSALA says:Can man has the capacity to unlock himself for him to be able to seek God and be saved? or the preacher of the gospel to do the unlocking?
response: Luke 11:5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[e] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Explicitly, after JesusChrist resurrection: 1 Corinthians 15: *1-4
———–
JTLEOSALA says:The “Pelagians” can do it for themselves , but the sad thing is that God never recognize them. The apostle Paul have said: “There is non righteous, no not one. There is none who seek God”
response: Again, Jesus said:Luke11:9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
2+2=4 The Spirit of Truth/the word of truth is present and evident throughout all of creation, the world having remained after mankind sinned and entered into evil. God is living and active, being the first mover and seeks all mankind as no one seeks him with their own righteousness. Soteriology 101 further has a video and a blog post which expands according to the prophetic context of Romans 3, according to OT scripture: See Psalm 14
———
JTLEOSALA said:Jesus Christ said: “No one can come to the Father except the Father will draw them to the Son. God the Father’s decision on whom He will (pick-up) to draw to the Son makes the other camp to invent the term “Calvin’s god” and make it as a laughing stuff for themselves. Christ is very dogmatic in this verse (John 6:44), saying that No one can come except he is drawn by the Father to the Son.
response: The immediate context exists in the larger context of the Jew who claims to know God and the scriptures.
John 6:44 No one can come to ME unless the FATHER who SENT ME draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is WRITTEN in the Prophets, ‘AND THEY ALL WILL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.’ Everyone who has HEARD and LEARNED FROM THE FATHER COMES to ME
When the reader spiritualizes the words spoken instead of following the conversation of God’s spiritual revelation they miscatorigize/or misapply the conversation as if philosophical. instead of actual behavior in reality.
These Jews were not given to Jesus words/did not come to Jesus because they were not really drawn by the truth, the WRITTEN word that came from the Father. Hence, they did not recognize Jesus, according to scriptures they claimed to believe.
Pointing back to John 5, Jesus said about these Jews as relates to the OT scriptures: 38 and YOU DO NOT HAVE HIS WORD ABIDING IN YOU, for YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE ONE WHOM HE HAS SENT. 39 You search the SCRIPTURES because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is THEY THAT BEAR WITNESS ABOUT ME, 40 YET YOU REFUSE TO COME TO ME that you may have life.
Pointing forward to John 10, Jesus said to these Jews: 37 If I am not doing THE WORKS OF MY FATHER, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, BELIEVE THE WORKS, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
These Jews should have be given to recognize the works Jesus was doing, because the works of scripture, God’s word, told the works that the Anointed One would do. Again, the Father did not truly draw them as they claimed, these Jews claiming to believe the scriptures, so they were not given to believe the works of Jesus. They did not recognize the Word of God in the flesh, prophesied to them ( for all of us, now) ahead of time.
Soteriology 101 also has a video and blog post dealing with John 6, of which this text is further covered in scriptural perspective and angle.
————————
JTLEOSALA continues to quote scripture and saying:
38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
The (same) seed has been sown to all types of soil (entire humanity) yet only the seeds that fell on the good soil prospers to the end. All the rest are failures and are doomed to hell.
response:
Jesus explaining the parable: Luke8: 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts,
so that they may not believe and be saved.
The Devil does not want men to believe and be saved. Jesus wants men to see and hear so they may be saved.
Those who tell mankind they all will be saved are being used to sow weeds in the field, because they are not speaking a word of truth, which is a seed of God. The CU is refusing to love the truth. Mankind is free to worship, to love death or life. See the battle: Ephesians 6:10-24
God warns us of the 2nd death.
Before the second death, Jesus’ reveals the rich man in spirit went to the place of suffering, separated from Abraham.
( the spirits in this prison were not set free after the resurrection )
Jesus has not yet returned: Who is guaranteed tomorrow?
Today is the day of salvation. Our timely enemy is still death before THE RESSURECTION,
Proclaiming the good news matters for the ‘now’ of life and matters because of death before The Resurrection.
Oops. Really, I oopsed it up.
I crossed thoughts of Theophilus CU position into jtleosala position.
I was reading jtleosala at times as if he was Theophilus.
( Something clicked about ‘names’ while I was washing dishes. So, I checked to see if I had made the mistake I was thinking I had made. And… I did. Which explained a lot to my self in review, because when I was reading JT I was thinking: What? Is JT being sarcastic or challenging both side by putting forward opposing views? Soooo… I responded straight forward to biblical text yet the idea, at times, of contending with a CU position holder in thought .
Ummmm… sooorrrrry. Well, it all makes more sense to me now …. and hopefully will clarify to JTleosala the ‘odd’ response. )
God bless to everyone and I hope you are having a blessed day. I appreciate the cordial way the conversations have happened with me. That goes for me mostly. You all know how I can be.
BRD has been a blessing. He makes me doubt things although I still challenge him. He has the patience, grace and fortitude to allow me to disagree with him and not be offended. That is a definite work of the Holy Spirit.
Even Damon Gribble responded to me above. His response was good. It made me rethink some things. He was cordial and respectful. I do not think that my comment is completely wrong but he definitely made me think I need to look at it closer and refine it.
I even thank FOH for his wonderful calm respectful interaction on the attributes of God. He made some great points and cogent argument. But there is so much to study. So much to learn. I wanted to keep talking with him but my mind was elsewhere. FOH sticks with the Bible alone and prayer. He may have an advantage over us all. It was FOH who mentioned it was “good calm interaction” I had to fight off pride I must admit. Because I know it is the “Fruit of the Holy Spirit” being “Self-Controlled” And since this “self-control” is of the HOLY SPIRIT I know that in some sense I am being “Christ Controlled. 2 Corinthians 5:14 – For the love of Christ controls (compels) us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; Thank you for the kind words FOH. It seems to have a purifying/sanctifying effect upon me and encourages me even more not to be so easily offended and to be careful what I write.
No, I am not saying I agree with all those I spoke of above. But I have learned to read all they type first. Meditate it. Try to really understand where they are coming from.
I remember something that Mr. Brian Wagner wrote on here one time. He said, “I hate the doctrine, but I love the people” That is the stance we all should take because who knows how God will use a person in bringing about another’s salvation or correcting false doctrine.
I do not follow John Calvin. I do not believe everything John Calvin taught. Such as the vast majority of humanity (along with Augustine) will end up in the Lake of Fire in hell’s torment for eternity.
I will say on the large scale, world wide, I personally believe that there are very few being saved today. But I am Postmil in my understanding of Eschatology. Many Calvinists are and that is where they differ from John Calvin. We believe because of the Christ’s commandment given concerning the Great Commission the vast majority of mankind will be saved and at the end of time and history the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge and glory of the Lord and the vast majority of people from all nations will be saved and Christianized!! Christ will win the Victory in History!
I know it seems as if I am playing both sides but it is not so. I am working through this. If I am contradictory or seem to be doing double talk. (And I will more than likely, my heart is being pulled in two different directions it seems) Call it that. I will not be offended. To me this is not about winning an argument. It is understanding the True Nature of the Eternal God of the Bible.
I think I need to stop here before this gets to much longer. I will pick up in my next comment.
With Calvinists and “I’m not a Calvinist” Calvinists, we always get to the many wills of God. His will that he tells us about, his secret will that trumps his other will, his super secret will that trumps those, his double super secret will that trumps …… etc.
What we end up with is a God whose word to us cannot be trusted. Or phrases like “God so loved the world” twisted into unrecognizable meaninglessness.
This infernal doctrine has shipwrecked many people’s faith. Diabolical.
A very insightful post Carl!!
It is not humanly possible to trust what one cannot know.
1) Calvin’s god’s SECRET will CAUSES every event which comes to pass.
2) Calvin’s god’s ENUNCIATED will can function as a FALSE REPRESENTATION of the SECRET will.
3) It is logically impossible for man to know what Calvin’s god’s SECRET will is – until after it comes to pass.
CONCLUSION:
Calvinists cross their fingers and MAKE-BELIEVE the promises in scripture belong to them.
In the mean time John Calvin says a -quote “LARGE MIXTURE” of Calvinists are DESIGNED for eternal torment in a lake of fire.
So you are absolutely right Carl!
It is a LOGICAL impossibility to trust Calvin’s god’s will – because one cannot know what it is – until after the fact.
And in Calvinism – man is totally powerless to do anything about it anyway.
Hi BRD,
I wanted to mention something to you that I was reading yesterday. As you know I do not follow John Calvin or believe everything he teaches. I do think his teaching on the Doctrine of Justification is excellent.
I do not remember the source of what I was reading but it mentioned something to the extent like this: ” Calvin’s had a strong fatalistic streak to his theology.”
I have heard you say this about Edwards but never about Calvin. Just wondering and thanks.
Hi Kevin – good to hear from you.
I’ve heard people make statements like this on Calvin.
During his day – many Christians actually had this response to his institutes.
Some of his contemporaries saw his doctrines as an adaptation of Stoicism – and some saw it as an adaptation of fatalism.
Stoicism, Fatalism and Determinism all have their origins in Greek thinking.
And Augustine was a devout NeoPlatonist throughout his life – which is totally Greek thinking.
Fatalism and Determinism are often confused as the same thing by people who don’t discern the difference between them.
I like to use the example of them being two different apples on the same tree.
These two apples share similarities
But at the same time, they are two different apples.
Both Fatalism and Determinism share in the fact that creatures are absolutely subject to them.
And the creature has absolutely no say in the matter of anything that will come to pass.
Because they share that attribute – people confuse them as the same thing.
But in philosophy they are differentiated as two separate notions.
Fatalism entails that events occur “OF NECESSITY”
Determinism entails that events occur “OF CERTAINTY” but not “OF NECESSITY”.
Edwards is considered as leaning into Fatalism because his writings included appeals to events occurring “OF NECESSITY”.
And its not uncommon for Calvinist’s who post here to make statements appealing to “NECESSITY”.
if you look through the historic posts here at SOT101 by certain Calvinists – you’re bound to find examples.
What’s not to trust? A god who declares ‘I desire that none perish’ while secretly decreeing that countless millions irresistibly perish? A god who urges, and claims to desire, men to ‘turn from wickedness and live’ while deliberately withholding from them the only ‘gift’ that will enable them to overcome the ‘curse’ he placed upon them? A god who makes offers to ‘all’, ‘whosoever’ and ‘the world’ when he really only reserves his gift of salvation for a deliberately limited few? Sounds like a god I can do without. I’ll stick with the true, gracious, loving, merciful God manifested in Jesus.
I want to address one of the verses Eric mentioned in His article. In no way is this personal against Eric. I have discussed with Eric before in private email concerning John 6 and he understands Biblical Hermeneutics and Exegesis better than I did. He was actually teaching me as we went along. Although we both disagreed with each other’s conclusions.
“For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.” -Rom 11:32
The parallel verse below:
Galatians 3:22 – But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ (Christ is not Jesus’ last name, it means the Messiah) might be given to those who believe.
Barnes Commentary: “God has shut up all in disobedience” – The word translated here “bound or shut up” sunekleise, is rendered in the margin “shut them all up together.” It is properly used in reference to those who are shut up in prison, or to those in a city who are shut up by a besieging army; 1 Macc. 5:5; 6:18; 11:65; 15:25; Joshua 6:6; Isaiah 45:1. It is used in the New Testament of fish taken in a net; Luke 5:6, “They enclosed a great multitude of fishes;” Galatians 3:22, “But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, etc.” In this place the Scripture is declared to have shut them up under sin, that is, declared them to be sinners; gave no hope of rescue by any works of their own; and thus kept them Romans 11:23 “shut up unto the faith which should afterward be revealed.” All are represented, therefore, as in prison, enclosed or confined by God, and to be liberated only in his own way and time
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon: sunekleise “enclosed” indicates that those who are shut up are shut up on all sides, so that they cannot escape (But they are able to do “otherwise” with their autonomous LFW)
This very verse that Mr. Eric Kemp uses.
Does it not say that God BOUND EVERYONE OVER TO DISOBEDIENCE…..Yes, it goes on to say that he may have MERCY on them all.
Does God have mercy on them all? To whom is Paul speaking of? Remember God is the subject here and the one doing the binding over to disobedience so that He can be the One who mercies all?
If it actually means everyone or all in a universal absolute sense, or in a provisional way of Christ atonement being extended to all for the taking of those who use their LFW and exercise their innate human faith or the Perfect Savior who actually saves His people from their sins as the Holy Spirit effectually applies the benefits of Christ’s atonement to them as they embrace Jesus the Savior through the gift of faith Christ. The believer exercises the faith, not God.
Does God bound everyone or all over to disobedience (was it up to them? “LFW) and will God had have mercy on everyone or all that he bound over to disobedience? Can one with LFW just choose otherwise without any assistance from God’s grace and liberate themselves? If not, why not? It is said that the will in the sense of LFW is not touched or tainted or in any bondage by sin, so what is the need of any special grace from the Holy Spirit other than the Gospel being preached from Holy Spirit anointed preachers?
Where does the Scriptures say that the “will of man” is left untouched and not tainted by sin in any way whatsoever? Is this just assumed and taken for granted?
How many are “the all” that “God bound over to disobedience” Was it “up to them” or did God do the binding over to disobedience?
This Holy Loving God bound humanity over to wickedness, sin, and disobedience?!? And it was not “up to them?”
This is not a disrespectful stab at my friend BRD. He knows that and I am sure to be refuted. 🙂 But these are just my thoughts as I really began meditating on the verse.
I think there is in some sense in Romans 11:32 as Thomas Schreiner says in his book, “The Law and Its Fulfillment,
“the presence of sin is ultimately due to God’s will, even though God Himself is not morally responsible for sin. That is where God binds humanity, Jews and Gentiles over to wickedness, sin, and disobedience.
Next comment I am going to try and explain Romans 11:32 in context. Give an Exposition of what is being said and why it refutes the article on its own. Not in an absolute sense because I do not disagree with everything in the article.
I think Brian may be able to speak of the use of “parallels” – which is a common communication mode in the framing of sentences.
For example:
*All* of the votes were collected in the collection box so that *All* of those votes could be tallied.
Would we consider it rational or an expected language pattern to instead say:
“All” votes were collected so that “SOME” votes could be tallied.
If that is what the author really meant to say – then we would expect the author to explain why the terms “ALL” and “SOME” are used in this sentence framing – because it represents a disjointed mode of communication.
Normally in language and writing – an author will want to avoid using language that would mislead the reader.
If one is going to contrast “ALL” with “SOME” then the language in such a statement would normally be structured differently.
For example:
*All* of the votes were collected in the collection box – but only “SOME” of the votes were selected for the tally.
To conclude that an author specifically uses the term “ALL” but actually means “SOME” in a statement is a very problematic conclusion.
Again – we would expect the author to explain this – because it is breaches commonly expected modes of communication.
But I will be interested in Brian’s take on this subject.
BRD
To conclude that an author specifically uses the term “ALL” but actually means “SOME” in a statement is a very problematic conclusion.
Kevin My Response
If we are speaking of the Romans 11:32 I do think the first part is talking about where God imprisions both Jews and Gentiles (the all in a absolute universal sense) to wicked disobedience.
But earlier on in Romans 11:26 we read that “all Israel” will be saved. I think that is talking about ethnic Israel. This is the future to my understanding. Yet to happen because they are still hardened and partially blind.
The thing to remember here is the Apostle Paul did not say in Romans 11:26 he was talking about all “Israelites” but “all Israel” will be saved.
So in Romans 11:32 we have God imprisioning all, (Jews and Gentiles) under wicked disobedience that he may have mercy on all,
If we are talking about “all without exception” then that leads to “Universal Salvation” which I thnk we both would disagree with.
Now the Non-Calvinists and the Calvinists are going to disagree on the understanding of this verse for sure. As to how God has mercy on the “all”
But basically the “all” who God will have mercy on are those who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.
I would suggest that this verse, like so many, is simply being asked to say more than was intended. One of the difficulties in translation is that the poetry and idiosyncrasies of one language do not always translate well into another.
I think it is at least reasonable to consider this verse was simply stating that all are equally separated from God by sin, and it is only when this sin issue is removed – as it was by the atonement of Jesus – then all are freed to receive forgiveness and life.
This does not necessarily suggest Universal salvation, although that would certainly be an arguable option, if looking solely at the single verse, which is never a wise approach to scripture. More consistent with the rest of scripture is that salvation has been made universally possible, by Jesus ‘taking away the sin of the world’. Of course, countless scriptures spell out that this universally offered salvation is conditioned upon individual faith, (not of works, not of birthright) rather than arbitrarily granted to some or all men.
Kevin
So in Romans 11:32 we have God imprisioning all, (Jews and Gentiles) under wicked disobedience that he may have mercy on all,
If we are talking about “all without exception” then that leads to “Universal Salvation” which I thnk we both would disagree with.
br.d
That conclusion would be logical if it is presupposed that “mercy” equates to a certainty of salvation.
But is there a requirement that “mercy” equate to that?
(Rom.11:31-32) NKJV:
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
(Rom.11:31-32) ESV:
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
(Rom.11:31-32) NASB:
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Notice that it doesn’t say, “that He WILL have mercy on all,” but rather, – that He MIGHT have mercy on all.” According to the Lexicons this is in the “Subjunctive mood” which is defined as: – ” the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances.”
Therefore, God, having shut up all in disobedience, has made mercy possible to all. Mercy is available to all, but not “ALL” will be saved! Only those who had accepted the gospel (no longer disobedient to God) received that mercy (v.30).
Kevin
So in Romans 11:32 we have God imprisioning all, (Jews and Gentiles) under wicked disobedience that he may have mercy on all,
If we are talking about “all without exception” then that leads to “Universal Salvation” which I thnk we both would disagree with.
br.d
That conclusion would be logical if it is presupposed that “mercy” equates to a certainty of salvation.
But is there a requirement that “mercy” equate to that?
Kevin
I in no way believe this verse is teaching Universal Salvation of all people without exeption. But this verse has been used for that very purpose. Romans 11:32
I explained in my previous comment my understanding. But it was God who by His will imprisioned both Jews and Gentiles under wicked disobedience that he may have mercy upon all who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.
And as I said in verse 26, of Romans 11 there will be a time in the future when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, that “all Israel will be Saved” Not all “Israelites” but bring Salvation to the ethnic nation of Israel, not in a absolute sense where every Israelite will be saved but in a Universal sense to the nation of Israel.
Yes, BrD… the two “all”s in Rom 11:32 are parallel. If you confirm all are consigned to sin by God then the same all are divinely purposed (Greek hina clause) to receive mercy from God.
The mercy to all is not salvation to all, but the merciful opportunity to all to seek salvation from God through faith.
Gentleman, I see a need to highlight the word: “NOW”, with a mind governed by the Spirit and not a mind governed by the flesh did Paul proclaim to ‘the people’ and minster to ‘HIs(now Paul’s family) people.(Romans 8/Romans 16 make this evident)
—————–
Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight,
I do not want you to be unaware
of this mystery,( now revealed)
brothers:
a partial hardening (now) has come upon Israel,
until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved,
as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but NOW have received mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so they too have NOW been disobedient
in order
that by the mercy shown to you(NOW)
they also may NOW[e]receive mercy.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience(NOW),
that he may have mercy on all(NOW).
All people are included in the faith NOW as we come to believe NOW through faith in this present age, humans, according to the flesh, both Jew and Gentile.
NOW the Jew and the Gentile are being saved{ at the same time} until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.
[Ephesians 1-3: see precept upon precept all reconciliations obtained by the blood of Christ.]
Those who come to believe NOW die to themselves and are hidden with Christ in God.
We are the one new humanity, born(again to be) rightfully called citizens of God, ambassadors left in the world (John 17), born citizen of heaven, proclaiming our Message because rightfully we were first born citizens in this world. (See Paul’s platform Act 24)
2 Corinthians 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. 12 We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[b] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling[c] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
And in this way all ( the remnant of ) Israel will be saved. {The Seed came in the flesh, prophectically entered through Israel, and through Israel shall Abraham’s offspring be named.}
By which open gate can you enter? Who were set as foundations? Who is identified within the chosen Bride of Christ?
Rev 21-“Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia.[d] Its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits[e] by human measurement, which is also an angel’s measurement. 18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light will the NATIONS walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26 THEY will bring into it the GLORY and the HONOR of the NATIONS.
=======
Romans1 spoken before Romans 11/1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it has been written, “And the righteous will live by faith.”
Don’t forget the wall. ( I forgot to highlight the word HUMAN about measurements in revelation 21.) Doors are set in a wall on foundations. 🙂 In the context of 1 corinthians 3- Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
About Romans 11, as it relates to 1 corinthians 3, as it relates to Revelation 21:2 Corinthians 3:18 says, “And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” Some translations say, “being transformed from glory to glory.”
In Revelation 19: The angel said: Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Verse 1 of the Book of the Revelation
Prologue
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.
Come soon Lord Jesus! Amen
Really, it is related to Romans 11:32 if you follow. ( I just couldn’t help but to write this post to the Glory of God as His spirit of praise!)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
AAAAHHHH!!! Our God is Amazing!!!! WORTHY!WORTHY!WORHTY!
{23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Come soon Lord Jesus! Amen!}
John recapitulating (from 19). And the angel said in Revelations 22: …. I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
In perspective and angle, this is some of what your entry as relates to ” The believer exercises the faith, not God.” brought to mind JUSKLNTIME2442.
The Faith, revealed by God, was perfectly executed in the flesh through Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ was the fulfillment given by God and Jesus Christ was perfectly faithful to God in the flesh.
In faith, in the flesh, the Son on earth perfectly believed the Father in heaven. Jesus Christ was faithful to the Spirit of Truth yet while in the flesh. Jesus Christ exercised perfect faith unto the truth of God in light of all that was unseen to him.
Those who believe are saved faithfully believing God is faithful, displayed in the testimony of Jesus Christ about the glory of his Father, which Jesus faithfully made known. The believing follow Christ example in faith. As humans, sinful in the flesh, Christ is our advocate, God’s perfect faithfulness given for us in the flesh.
1 Peter 1:19-21 (ESV)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
John 17- Jesus, who only prayers a perfectly pure prayer about all that is glorified and given to be one in the Spirit of Truth.
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
…..
20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
The Word of God is living and active, given for us.
His blood already poured out for us, miraculously, our faithful Lamb who was slain is standing!
Revelation 5:6
And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Revelation 13:8
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Rev 13:8 does not call us to conclude, as if to say: God determined me over my neighbor without reason, being arbitrary. To find this to be the answer is to pose the wrong question, as if to decide: Did God determine me over my neighbor without reason, being arbitrary?
Instead, it reveals who we worship. For the believer it is to cry “Worthy is the Lamb !”
1 Corinthians 15:*1-4- Here is where we ask “Do you see your name? If the dead are not raised eat and drink for tomorrow you die.
Rev 3:5b
I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
( Who conquers what?)
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
( Today, we are without excuse to not be found asking generally about creation, until God finds us to want the truth to this question: “Was Jesus God in the flesh, resurrected from the dead, the payment for and forgiver of {my}our sins?”)
Who does not exercise faith? All with the common ability to reason exercise it, hoping for what they have evidentally concluded is true or false. God knows the heart and mind of motive of every person who can claim to follow the truth. 🙂 I trust His word on this… as He has made evident. (-: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
May His people stand firm to place our faith in The Truth- the spirit of words are unseen, yet God makes seen by recording them.
Only God accounted perfectly for the Spirit of God and the flesh, our Mediator, The Faith revealed was built on the Word of God… In the beginning:”God said” then came John 1
Blessing with perspective and angle family (holy kiss): Who is promised, given a guarantee about tomorrow?
Revelation 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
Who is not bound to understand ahead of time?
Revelation 13:6-8
6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,[a] that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.[b] And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Just received the email referencing the post ‘Why I Am Not A Calvinist,….’ but the link to the post on the website is failing. Great post but when I try to review the post and comments it brings up an error stating ‘Oops! That page can’t be found’.
I couldn’t find any other method to let someone know about this challenge so chose this comment/reply option.
Thank you!
Thanks Ben
I’ve sent an email to Eric on that issue.
I’m sure he’ll fix that.
Thanks for another great example & Agreed He is under no obligation, because indeed He created libertarian free (human) creatures not anything more not anything less, but we simply have a choice and His
“”Mercy is an expression of power, not of weakness.””
To say mercy is not an expression of power, but of weakness would indeed be “unChristlike” as your article points out…. I would STAY on the other side of the road either, because I’m pretending not to notice or I choose not to notice… in my opinion… His mercy toward me and all humanity is an expression of His Amazing gracious power!!! In our finite being we are absolutley to weak to love as He does!!!
Wonderful post Reggie!
Thanks
God is obligated to do what he promises he will do.
If he weren’t, He would be a liar.
If God promises to have mercy when we do what he tells us is required to get his mercy, he will have mercy on whom he says he will have mercy.
I find it insane to believe that God reaching down to us 100 billion-trillion lightyears, but only taking our hand when we reach up 2 inches is interpereted as “working your way into heaven,”
And that God choosing whomever he wants to be the nation that mothers the Messiah implies that he does the exact same thing to whoever gets to heaven.
Very well stated Gordon!!
Thank you!
It does show the futility of some these behavior patterns.
We see believers dictating to God what he is
And how/where/when/what he does
Posturing themselves as divine INSIDERS who have divine knowledge – and are thus designated as TELLERS of all things divine.
But that behavior pattern – is in fact – exactly what one would expect to see with Gnosticism. :-]
Hey Br.d, Just thought perhaps if you were in contact with Dr. Flowers you might be interested in posting him these questions raised by Randy Seiver who is one of the hosts on “The Bearded Theologians” on YouTube. They mentioned Provisionism a couple of times, so I thought I’d post this to your site.
HE WROTE:
I just wanted to post some general questions for those who seem to be too lazy to study what Calvinism actually teaches on issues like election and particular redemption.
1. What do you imagine the issue to be in the so-called doctrine of limited atonement?
2. Do Calvinists deny that God loves the entire world [every individual sinner without exception] in some sense? Is He good, patient, and longsuffering and does He extend His promise of pardon and justification to sinners indiscriminately?
3. Do Calvinists believe any sinner will be lost because God hasn’t chosen them or will they be lost because they continue to suppress God’s truth in unrighteousness? I.e., Do Calvinists believe in equal ultimacy? Do we believe the reason sinners will be lost is that God has determined to damn them for no reason?
4. Do Calvinists believe there is any sinner God will refuse to save for the lack of a sufficient sacrifice?
5. Do Calvinists believe there is any possibility that any of those in whose place Jesus suffered will be lost for eternity?
Thank you Aidan,
You seem to be indicating Randy mentioned Provisionism – and then posted questions.
But its not clear if Randy posed these questions specifically for Dr. Flower’s to answer?
No, sorry if I gave the impression that he posed those questions specifically for Dr. Flowers to answer. No, I just thought he might be interested, seeing that they are so critical of Armenians and Provisionists. He announces at the start that they are general questions for people out there. If you wanted to answer some of them that would be fine too, it doesn’t have to go to Dr. Flowers. In fact, it’s okay if nobody wants to answer them. But I think they imagine that people out there don’t get what limited atonement truly means.
Thanks Aidan!
Would it be possible to get the specific link to where these questions are posted?
The system here may not permit you to post the link – because of its spam filter
Would you mind if I reach out to you directly via email ?
Thanks Br.d!
Yeah, no problem! It might be good for you to get a look at the context.
How cleverly the Calvinist always words these questions as ‘Do Calvinists believe . . .?’ In fact, one of the main issues frequently exposed on this site, is that the vast majority of Calvinists DO NOT believe in the assertions essential to the doctrines of Calvinism, yet still consider themselves ‘Calvinists’ or, more likely, ‘Reformed’.
I would assert that, indeed, most Calvinists do reject many of the necessary logical conclusions of Calvinism. But that does nothing to exculpate Calvinism. The real questions should always ask ‘Do the doctrines of Calvinism necessarily affirm or deny . . .?’
This is what Calvinism has to answer for, not what the average Joe, who has been misinformed, misled or told only half truths by their teachers, actually believes. Once you have seen this dance a few times, you know all of the Calvinist’s future moves.
So let me take a tentative stab at this thinly disguised attempt to dodge the determinism bullet via redirection.
// Do Calvinists deny that God loves the entire world [every individual sinner without exception] in some sense? Is He good, patient, and longsuffering and does He extend His promise of pardon and justification to sinners indiscriminately? //
This is actually three questions. I would theorize that very few Calvinists deny the love and goodness of God, His goodness, patience and longsuffering or his offer to pardon sin as proclaimed in scripture and in the words and works of Jesus.
vs.
// Do the doctrines of Calvinism (TULIP) necessarily deny that God loves the entire world [every individual sinner without exception] in some sense? Is He good, patient, and longsuffering and does He extend His promise of pardon and justification to sinners indiscriminately? // Here the answers are quite different.
Calvinism would certainly affirm that God loves the entire world IN SOME SENSE. But is it a sense that is in any way meaningful? While worded in a manner that deliberately clouds the issue, no reasonable person would assert that the temporary provision of life sustaining resources while plotting for inescapable slaughter (or perpetual torture, depending on your beliefs) is, in fact ‘good’ and only arguably ‘patient’ or ‘longsuffering’. Is it ‘good’ (kind, loving, etc.), or is it merely unavoidable that sun, rain and food, which are part of the ecosystem of the universe, fall equally upon the ‘loved’ and the ‘hated’ who share a common habitat?
Even more misleading is the wording of the question as to whom God extends the promise of pardon and justification. This is the precise manner by which Calvinists have, to date, successfully misled their acolytes as to the full, undeniable logical ramifications of their system.
Scripture most certainly proclaims the good news of God’s promised pardon to all sinners, who are willing to confess and turn from their sin, put their faith in the promises of God and begin a new life walking with Him. Whereas Calvinism cannot possibly deny this genuine OFFER to pardon sin, as it is systematically described and repeated throughout scripture, what they can do, and have indeed done, is add an unbiblical asterisk to this promise, which in effect, makes the promise meaningless and useless to all but a limited few; ahem, meaning them.
Their subtle asterisk allows them to proclaim the truth of Calvi-god’s love and grace, while, at the same time, limiting its true intention to a select, targeted audience, i.e., ‘the elect’. This asterisk, which here is unacknowledged, states that before Calvi-god conditioned the receipt of his promised pardon and justification upon ‘faith’ He cursed all human beings with an inability to have such faith. (Blame it on Adam, Original Sin, whatever, but only God could pronounce and carry out such a curse.) How’s that for ugly? Calvi-god is going to make a grand, glorious offer of incomparable value – after he ensures that no one can take him up on His offer.
So, with Calvinism’s asterisk, extending this promise of pardon and justification indiscriminately to all sinners who ‘believe’ is meaningless – as not a single one of them, due to Calvi-god’s curse upon them, can possibly do so. It is like offering a million dollars to all who can jump, unaided, 100 feet straight up in the air. It is a meaningless, valueless offer, which no one would take seriously, as no one could possibly meet the stated condition. The same is true with Calvinism’s distortion of God’s ‘offer’ of pardon for sin. It is an ‘offer’ made upon a condition that no one can meet. This starkly changes the whole concept of God’s ‘indiscriminate’ love and grace.
In other words, whether sun and rain or promises of grace, Calvi-god’s ‘indiscriminate’ ‘love’ under the so-called ‘Doctrines of Grace’ all add up to the same thing – not even a hill of beans. No one can believe, so a gift predicated upon belief is a deceptive and/or insincere offer. Instead, under Calvinism, you are eternally, inescapably destined for heaven or hell, and there is not one thing any human being can do to change that predestination. Any attempt to ignore, deny or hide that most important, even quintessential point, can be called nothing but deception.
No amount of sun, rain or moonshine (either kind) is enough to make up for what looms ahead for those inescapably destined for hell. One man’s ‘faith’ or ‘belief in Jesus’ is just as predetermined and irresistible as another man’s lack thereof. All have no choice. Any Calvinist that ignores or denies this is either deceived or deceiving.
Thus, under their system, ‘faith’ is not a sincere condition of salvation, something indiscriminately possible for all men, but a ruse, a veil cast over the truth of the matter, which is that Calvi-god only intends, and always only intended, to save a select subset of mankind which He alone predetermined in eternity past, before any were yet born. Calvi-god is not really conditioning his gift upon anything, and nothing anyone does or does not do will in any way effect or change His eternally predetermined plan.
The ‘faith’ ruse, under Calvinism, is nothing but a fake, intended to hide the real nature and intentions of Calvi-god to irresistibly save those He has chosen to save and irresistibly damn those He has chosen to damn.
Listen carefully, Calvinist acolyte, for this is what you are never told in clear, unequivocal terms. Just as the radio ministries, books and podcasts never straightforwardly present this information, here once again, the Calvinist defender deliberately hides the truth in misleading and equivocal terms. Although, to be fair, he has little choice, apart from abandoning scripture which presents the real truth – that salvation is conditioned upon voluntary, individual faith in God.
// Do Calvinists believe any sinner will be lost because God hasn’t chosen them or will they be lost because they continue to suppress God’s truth in unrighteousness? I.e., Do Calvinists believe in equal ultimacy? Do we believe the reason sinners will be lost is that God has determined to damn them for no reason? //
Again, we have three questions, all entailing a certain amount of question begging and conflation, but I would theorize that few Calvinists actually believe any of this. But, again, the real question to be asked is:
// Does Calvinism necessitate that any sinner will be lost because God hasn’t chosen them or will they be lost because they continue to suppress God’s truth in unrighteousness? I.e., Do Calvinists believe in equal ultimacy? Do we believe the reason sinners will be lost is that God has determined to damn them for no reason? //
Look closely at the cleverly worded questions. Absolutely without question Calvinism asserts that the only sinners who will be lost are the ones Calvi-god has chosen to not save; but they will rarely come right out and say so. The fact that sinners ‘continue to suppress God’s truth in unrighteousness’ is a subterfuge. It is entirely unavoidable, and no fault of their own, since Calvi-god has cursed them with an inability to have faith in Him, thus they will ever be enemies of truth, righteousness and God. Hear that Calvinist? Stop and ponder this carefully, for the ignoring of that pesky little asterisk is how you are misled. If any men continue to suppress God’s truth in unrighteousness, under Calvinism, it is because they have no ability to do otherwise.
Note that, for non-Calvinists, this cruel reality does not exist. Men can either believe God’s truth or they can suppress it. It is their choice, and they will be treated according to that choice. This is reasonable. This is logical. God presents men with a choice, and rewards or punishes them accordingly. (This is after Jesus has done away with the problem of sin, taking away the sin of the world that none need perish because of it.)
Under Calvinism, there is no choice, thus the concept of a ‘condition’ for salvation is absurd. Men continue to suppress God’s truth in unrighteousness simply because it is, without question, their predetermined destiny to do so. To trumpet and praise men who ‘have faith’, when the only reason they ‘have faith’ is because it was irresistibly, unsought, given to them. This faith ruse is little more than Calvi-god’s date rape drug, secretly slipping a little faith into the sinner and making him, voila, an entirely new man who now desires to know and love Calvi-god! Because, apparently, Calvi-god cannot win ‘lovers’ the normal way, by just being himself and receiving the voluntary love of those who come to know him.
The question of ‘Equal Ultimacy’ consists of a made up term to hide the most extremely unpalatable, most desperately hidden and most unique distinctive of Calvinism. It would be like making up a new term for ice cream, say ‘durgoop’, and arguing over the healthfulness of durgoop while devouring a bowl of ice cream. One could write an entire book discussing this subject, but in sum, Calvinism tries, and fails, to have its ice cream and eat it too.
It unequivocally declares that God alone is the sole, sovereign source of ‘whatsoever comes to pass’ but then tries, by mere assertion to sneak out his sole, sovereign responsibility for sin and evil which, undeniably, have come to pass. Despite endless semantic gymnastics and newly invented terms, Calvinism has never been able to escape the essential logic that necessitates that a God who is the sole, determinitive cause of ALL things to be the source of ALL things, which includes evil.
So, while Calvinists will gratefully take up the made up entity of Equal Ultimacy in hopes of escaping their quandary, in the end, they never succeed. All the secondary means, and creative wills and whatever else they might imagine cannot paper over the inescapable fact that if God dreamed up, ordained and by His own determination and power brings to pass whatsoever happens, then that MUST, unarguably, include evil. There just is no logical way around this logical truth.
So, yes, Calvinism does necessitate that the only reason any sinners will be lost is because God has not chosen them and given them the ability to NOT suppress His truth in unrighteousness. Under Calvinism, all who will be saved have been chosen in eternity past and will, at some point in their life, be irresistibly granted (they won’t desire it or seek it, it – regeneration – will just be ‘done’ to them) the ability to NOT suppress God’s truth in unrighteousness any longer. This IS the ‘only’ reason they will be saved, which boils down, as always, to ‘The only men who will be saved are the ones Calvi-god has chosen and enabled to be saved.’ Because, remember, on Calvinism, man plays no part in salvation but that of a resistless ‘victim’ of Calvi-god’s inescapable regeneration who will, without fail, be saved.
No man goes to hell because he sins – remember the atonement, the sin sacrifice, the lamb which taketh away the sin of the world? Men only remain ‘lost’ in sin because they were not included in this atonement plan and ‘given’ the gift of faith. (We won’t even go into the bonus of ‘Sin Boldly’ that Reformed Theology grants to the chosen ones.)
Thus, sinners are ‘saved’, not because they made a choice, while a sinner, to put their faith in God and his offer of pardon, but because they were irresistibly GIVEN a faith they never desired or sought. A faith which others, by the way, were needlessly denied, as it could just as easily have been GIVEN to them as well. (This is the cue for ‘But it is all for God’s glory’, as if He would not be glorious without irresistibly damning helpless (truly helpless to do anything other than what has been predetermined for them to do) men to eternal destruction.)
Next, // Do Calvinists believe there is any sinner God will refuse to save for the lack of a sufficient sacrifice?// Again, it is likely few Calvinists actually believe this, as it is the exact opposite of what scripture declares.
But, once again, the real question is:
// Does Calvinism necessarily affirm that there are sinners God will refuse to save for the lack of a sufficient sacrifice? //
The deliberate clouding of this issue is so huge it would, again, take a book to unveil, but, in sum, the trick of the Calvinist is the use of words like ‘sufficient’ and ‘efficient’. Throw out the deliberately equivocal adjectives, and just discuss ‘sacrifice’, then, indeed, Calvinism affirms that Calvi-Jesus only died for the elect. But the real cleverness lies in it being the ‘wrong’ question. Because, once again, the only reason Calvi-Jesus’ sacrifice was NOT efficient for some men, even if presumably ‘sufficient’ for all, is that Calvi-god did not ‘choose’ some men to be saved. So if there is indeed anything lacking, under the system of Calvinism, in the atonement for sin – God forbid – it would only be the will of Calvi-god to save all men.
Have you ever heard discussions about wasted drops of Jesus’ blood and the like? That is all part of this ruse to hide Calvinism’s distortion of Jesus’ sufficient and universal atonement for all sin. Which in itself is just a ruse to hide the fact that, under Calvinism, Calvi-god did not WANT to save all men. EVER.
Even Calvinism cannot deny the power of Calvi-god to atone for and pardon all sin, universally, as well as freely grant eternal life to any sinner He wishes to have mercy on. They must simply create a scenario under which He does not wish to save all men, thus unilaterally picks and chooses those who He will save and those who He will not. Thus, the concept of atonement, sin sacrifice, etc. has been deliberately muddied until people do not understand the Old Testament foreshadowing as presented nor the nature of God’s love and desire to all men.
As John put it, Jesus was indeed ‘the lamb which taketh away the sin of the world.’ Nothing was lacking, not will nor power. Jesus came that ANY man MIGHT be saved. (Only Universalists – a very small subcategory of non-Calvinists – assert that all men WILL be saved. This is simply the same determinism of Calvinism, only with a different end result.)
Nothing was lacking in Jesus’ freely offered sacrifice of himself for sin. Nor was a single drop of blood wasted, simply because some of those who were died for deny and refuse this gift. This is because God’s goal was not TO SAVE all men, but to provide salvation for all men, and this Jesus did.
Sin was atoned for, removed from the picture, for any and all who acknowledge and cling to this gracious free gift of Jesus’ atonement for sin. Sin is NOT the problem, and is NOT the true reason any man will go to hell. Only by denying God’s provision of atonement and free offer of pardon can one continue to hold up sin as man’s big problem. No, Jesus eliminated that problem, when he took away the sin of the world. Rather, lack of belief in the free gift of grace is the problem, and the ONLY reason any man’s sin will be held against him and cause him to go to hell. See the difference? It is not the existence of sin, but the lack of faith that is now man’s problem.
But in the typical Calvinist church, sin, sin, sin is all you will hear. Because Calvinist preachers cannot affirm that Jesus took away the sin of the world. This would – as indeed it was intended to – open the door for ANYONE to be able to be saved. No select few. No secretive, selective, unsought regeneration. No irresistible grace, just pure, freely offered grace to WHOSOEVER will believe in it and receive it; which is, indeed, the glorious good news, the gospel of Jesus Christ declared through his life, death and resurrection. Thanks and glory be to God forever!
Lastly // Do Calvinists believe there is any possibility that any of those in whose place Jesus suffered will be lost for eternity?// This is simply a twist on the previous question, and, again, few Calvinists actually believe this. But, as always, the important question is not what CALVINISTS believe but what CALVINISM teaches. And, again, that is why this site exists, to demonstrate that the two are often mutually exclusive.
The real question should read:
//Does Calvinism necessarily affirm that there is any possibility that any of those in whose place Jesus suffered will be lost for eternity?// The defender of Calvinism here, once again, deliberately poses the wrong question, a pointless one at that. The careful wording here begs the question, being based upon the (false) presupposition that none of those for whom Jesus suffered, died and provided atonement for can or will be lost for eternity.
As stated above, this is based upon a deliberate clouding of the meaning and intent of atonement for sin. If, as I would assert scripture declares, Jesus died to take away the sin of the world, there is no sin in the world that cannot be taken away. All alike were ‘suffered’ for, died for and atoned for. And yet, scripture appears to warn that not all will be saved.
Listen carefully, for this is the heart of the distinction between Calvinism and non-Calvinisim (discounting Universalism). If Jesus’ death atoned for sin, and not all sinners are saved, there can only exist four possibilities to explain this fact:
1) Jesus’ death and atonement was intended for all sin, but was not sufficient to save all. (Insufficient Atonement)
2) Jesus’ death and atonement was intended for all sin, and all will be saved. (Universalism)
3) Jesus’ death and atonement was intended for only some sin, and was ‘efficient’ for all it was intended. (Limited Atonement, Calvinism)
4) Jesus’ death and atonement was intended for all sin, but was provided on the condition of the faith of the intended recipient. All who put their faith in the freely offered atonement for sin (which requires acknowledgment of sin and a need for atonement) will be saved. (Universal provision, conditional salvation)
Debating sufficiency and efficiency is pointless without clearly stating and understanding these four logical suppositions. It is in mixing or ignoring all of the actual possibilities and suppositions that Calvinists create confusion. They usually disregard the first possibility and conflate the fourth with the second. Thus, they falsely declare that one can only be an atheist, a Calvinist or a Universalist, totally misconstruing and/or discounting the entire body of argument that underlies non-Calvinistic soteriology.
Sorry this was so long, but there were quite a few questions to address.
Hey TSOO,
I read through your answers and think it is an excellent response to his questions. They are well thought out. You obviously gave them serious thought before putting ‘hand to keyboard’ (I think I’ve just coined a new phrase😉). Yes, you’re right! Many of these type questions are just whitewashing the ugly truth of Determinism! And they also malign the character of God, including His superabounding love and grace for all men. A God whom they have turned into a grievous respecter of persons (Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11).
One comment you made in reference to his question: “Do Calvinists believe there is any sinner God will refuse to save for the lack of a sufficient sacrifice?” I thought was brilliant. You said: “the trick of the Calvinist is the use of words like ‘sufficient’ and ‘efficient’. Throw out the deliberately equivocal adjectives, and just discuss ‘sacrifice’, then, indeed, Calvinism affirms that Calvi-Jesus only died for the elect.” In other words, let’s cut through all the fluff and get rid of the smoke and mirrors, and then you’ll see what the real question should be. Yes, their god IS refusing to save sinners. In fact he had DETERMINED not to save the vast majority of sinners. But you can bet it wasn’t for the lack of being able to give a sufficient sacrifice, but that for them there was no sacrifice at all. And what was the issue? Was the issue that Calvi-god couldn’t save them? No, not on your life! The issue was that Calvi-god WOULDN’T. They are preaching another gospel which actually is no gospel at all, and what they worship and serve is NOT the God of the bible, but a god of their own making and image! Without question He has appropriately been named ‘Calvi-god’ by those who belong to this platform!
Again, well done! What you’ve said was well worth the time you put into it.