The state of the soteriological controversies online is a shambles.
It seems like most want to build brand recognition through “gotcha!” mudslinging and memes. I like memes as much as the next guy, and they can be useful rhetorical tools, but when the dialogue never goes deeper that is indicative of a wider problem.
In the spirit of being the change you want to see, the following will be a continuation of a deeper-than-memes dialogue. It seems like my interlocutor, a Reformed fellow by the name of Josh, is likewise concerned by the shallow state of the present online discourse.
Specifically, Josh’s criticism is that Soteriology 101 only critiques a modern, popular-level Calvinism that does not accurately reflect historical, confessional Reformed theology. This is what leads Calvinists to not take our criticism seriously and to push back with the ever so frequent YoU DoN’t UnDeRsTaNd CaLvInIsM.
His main criticism is summarized thusly:
Moving forward, I’m going to call Josh’s criticism The Standard of Seriousness. That is, since Soteriology 101 does not intend to deal with standardized, confessional Reformed orthodoxy, therefore our criticism aren’t all that serious. He’s not making a value judgement, as he goes on to say…
…he is merely claiming our criticisms are shallow and inaccurate, hence the justified push-back we receive. Like he says:
Our focus on “strictly modern positions” is what leads to the criticism.
Purpose of My Pushback
What I hope to show in transferring this dialogue to a blog post, which allows for more flexibility in how I address the criticisms, is that Josh’s Standard of Seriousness is irrational, over-burdensome, and internally inconsistent.
Specifically, on the one hand Josh is claiming that what orthodox Reformed Theology is is objectively, and apparently easily, knowable. Yet, on the other hand, Josh claims this knowability is simply a matter of linguistic and historical evaluation and interpretation. Do you see the problem? Historical and linguistic evaluation are not that easy!
When I asked him how I could know what orthodox Reformed Theology is, he answered:
But don’t those require interpretation and evaluation? How do I know that Josh is interpreting and evaluating that historical literature accurately?
Josh repeats this claim about the confessions:
It isn’t enough to understand and evaluate how contemporary Calvinists are reading and using the confessions, you have to understand the language and rational categories in their historical context. Let us summarize these requirements in bullet points. In order for Provisionist criticisms of Reformed Theology to be taken seriously, Provisionists must:
- Understand the Bible in the language and categories in its historical context
- Understand the Reformed confessions in the language and categories in their historical context
- Understand the theological development performed by contemporary (to the confessions) and later Reformed theologians in their language and categories in their historical context
To catch a glimpse of what the third point means, this dialogue with Josh began when he cited the writings of some of these post-confession Reformed theologians for a definition of free will. Let’s see how you do parsing out the lexical and grammatical use of English-long-past in these definitions:
How are you doing with the definitions of the voluntas discreta and the connaturalis? Feel like you need a few years of reading historical theology in your free time after work to catch up?
Is it a rational standard to hold that every Provisionist who critiques Reformed theology online must first reach the knowledge level of a professional Reformed historian?
Is it a consistent standard that you also hold Reformed teachers to when they criticize Arminian theology or the Greek Orthodox?
I cannot see how that is the case.
This is the part where I want to be clear what I’m not saying.
This Is Not An Appeal to Relativism
As if anticipating this follow up Josh pre-fired with:
No, I’m sure there are many objective historical truths I would learn by doing the historical study he suggests. The point is that the Standard of Seriousness he is attempting to hold Provisionists to is over-burdensome, irrational, and inconsistent.
Over-burdensome because it disqualifies everyone except professional Reformed historians from ever writing a sentence in criticism of Reformed Theology, lest they not be taken seriously. I can see how that would work in his favor.
Irrational because it possible for a criticism against Reformed Theology to be valid without the person having done Ph.D-level study into Reformed theological history.
Inconsistent because he does not hold Reformed teachers to the same standard re: libertarian philosophy and the use of its jargon nor to understand the technical academic work of William Lane Craig nor demand they engage with the likes of Alvin Platinga nor recount with the entire history of the Greek Orthodox break with the Reformed Church.
I’ve done graduate level research. I know what it takes to fully grasp the concepts he is front-loading “I’ll only take you seriously if you first do this” with. For the professionals, it would take years of Ph.D study to become as versed as he wants us to. For the layman, this would take longer years of free-time study and, since the layman probably won’t do the languages, we would still be relying on translations.
Another thing I am not saying is that Provisionists have no burden at all to rightly understand Reformed Theology. Nor am I saying that it would be a waste of time for a Provisionist to delve waist deep into the historical development of Reformed orthodoxy. I’m sure there is much value there. What I am saying is that this cannot be a rationally expected down payment on engaging in the soteriological controversies.
There are two other aspects of this criticism I would like to address. I hope you can see how these aspects interplay.
Speaking Another Language
It seems axiomatic to me that every field of study comes with its own language. “Jargon”, terms those known only to the few who engage in the field, are developed and shared among the literate. This is broadly true about the soteriological controversies where words like regeneration and predestination are common while outsiders may have been lost at the word soteriology. This is especially true of a highly specialized field of study like Reformed historical theology. Only those on the inside will readily understand the language being spoken.
Josh rather tips his hand that his standard is that we must become fluent in that language before we can even talk about Calvinism. He intends to say that anyone on the outside can understand what the Reformed mean by “decree” but ends up actually claiming the opposite.
He means to say that even children can understand what decree means while adult Provisionists apparently cannot. But this is not surprising to any first generation immigrant. The first generation struggles to adopt the new language, and many never do. The second generation, their children who grow up in the new language, have no trouble at all and end up translating for their parents. So, yes, children being catechized in Reformed churches rather proves my point that it’s an internal language Josh is expecting outsiders to speak before he will entertain them.
Further, “people seeking ordination in Reformed churches are rigorously examined orally by their regional presbytery on these things…” is a strong point in my favor here. A naturalized citizen is just as much a citizen of a country as the native. Josh is using the example of the ordination-seeking Reformed as an example of the technical, linguistic knowledge required of us for citizenry among The Serious. Without realizing it, Josh is suggesting we must become Reformed before we can critique Reformed theology.
What follows is that this standard, of course, only goes one direction. Notice that when Josh is lamenting that Provisionists didn’t know the historical Reformed definition of decree, what he’s really claiming is that we couldn’t identify the technical jargon of the catechism. Not being able to identify the technical jargon of the catechism means you fail the Standard of Seriousness. It doesn’t matter to Josh if we understand the concept, or say it in a different, perhaps un-preferred, way. Josh isn’t doing a deep dive into our language and jargon to see what we really mean.
Josh does not hold himself to that standard.
See, we have to make our intentions known to the satisfaction of the Reformed. The Reformed don’t have to understand our criticisms in their own context. They do not have to extend the charity that our criticisms are worth understanding and engaging with on their own merits. No, first, we have to prove to the satisfaction of the Reformed that we’re really “concerned with truth, accuracy, and clarity” by accurately relaying Reformed technical jargon. We have to prove our own innocence before the Calvinist will deign to take us seriously.
But Josh doesn’t do that. He’s not steeped in the history of the Greek Orthodox and the Anabaptists. He doesn’t know the ends and outs of E.Y. Mullins‘ theology. You will notice I’m not demanding that of him. I’m not rebutting his criticism on the basis that he hasn’t reached the prerequisite knowledge about our history.
My suggestion to Josh would be this: If he wants to see more productive dialogue than YoU dOn’T uNdErStAnD cAlViNiSm, then seek to understand our reasons for rejecting Reformed soteriology and the arguments we’re making on their own merits. If you discern we’re responding to a form of Calvinism you don’t subscribe to, then tell us how the Reformed sources we’re reading are wrong and do not represent Calvinism.
In other words, have that deeper dialogue instead of gatekeeping. Be the change you want to see.
18 thoughts on “The Standard of Seriousness”
Very well stated, Eric!! Thank you. One can’t help to think that such Reformed criticisms of honest inquiries into their faulty doctrines displays, yet again, a common irksome character trait often displayed by Calvinists — namely, a condescending, intellectually superior attitude! I appreciate your even-handed, patient response to your friend’s criticism. Your friend obfuscates and hides behind what he considers a superior knowledge of orthodox Calvinism — a convenient way to side-step and disengage from having to answer serious objections to Reformed theology.
As Josh said, “the children of the catechism class…could explain what the term means.” So, if one is to argue against Calvinism, he must go to the catechism to define the terms that Calvinists use and argue using terms as defined by Calvinists.
If you disagree with the Calvinist definition of the term, then recognize that you are arguing that Calvinism wrongly defines a term the way it does because it is not supported by Scripture and make that argument. If it turns out that the Calvinist has correctly defined the term, then argue against Calvinism using the term as Calvinism defines it. If it turns out that the Calvinist has incorrectly defined the term, then there is no need for further argument.
Calvinism’s standardized, confessional Reformed orthodoxy
Whatever we say Calvinism is at any given moment
No matter how much what we say contradicts its-self from one moment to the next. 😀
This is why Dr. Timothy Stratton refers to the typical Calvinist as a “Bag of beliefs”
A belief does not bear the burden of having to be logically coherent.
And the more self-contradicting it is – the easier it is for us to hide behind the “You don’t understand it” argument
Simply put – Calvinism is a doctrine that doesn’t want to be rightly understood! :-]
What the Calvinist wants to call “Free choice” or “Freedom of choice” is best understood as “Free logical impossibly” or “Freedom of Logical Impossibility”
Here is why:
1) The function of choice – in its normative sense – entails making a decision between alternative possibilities.
2) In such case – alternative possibilities from which to select must exist
3) In a 100% predestined world – alternatives from that which is predestined by infallible decree – do not exist because they are excluded
4) As soon as that one single option (i.e. human decision) is RENDERED-CERTAIN – all alternatives are excluded – and their exclusion is also RENDERED-CERTAIN
5) Any alternative from that which is RENDERED-CERTAIN – would falsify the infallible decree – which is impossible
6) Therefore for any given human option (i.e. human decision) – there is ever only one single RENDERED-CERTAIN option – which will come to pass infallibly – having been infallibly decreed.
7) Additionally – Calvinism represents a “CLOSED” future. And multiple/alternative options existing for a human to select from would represent an OPEN future – which is impossible
8) Thus one single option (i.e. human decision) is RENDERED-CERTAIN, And humans are given NO CHOICE as to what that one single RENDERED-CERTAIN option will be
Since the existence of alternative options from which a human might select are excluded at by the infallible decree, and since the human is given NO CHOICE as to what option (i.e. human decision) will be RENDERED-CERTAIN – it follows the function of choice – according to its normative meaning – does not exist for humans in Calvinism.
Therefore “Free Choice” in Calvinism equates to “Free Logical Impossibility”
Br.d.: Therefore “Free Choice” in Calvinism equates to “Free Logical Impossibility”
Yep. We all know that Calvinism’s “Free Choice” really just means “Free to choose ONLY what God predestined/causes you to choose, and nothing else but that.”
And only a Calvinist would be brazen enough (I have a few other words in mind, but I’ll go with “brazen”) to call that “free” or “choice.”
It is funny isn’t it!
So many things in Calvinism exist in the form of Facades :-]
It’s funny your interlocutor is harping on Sot 101 when it is intentionally designed for lay persons like most of us. There are a multitude of sites, authors, scholars who critique RT/Calvinism, and there are Reformed scholars who adequately critique their own theology and the interlocutor should know this.
Another way of looking at this Eric is that there will always be a Sot 101 for the likes of Alpha & Omega, and there are guys like Herman Ridderbos, JB Torrance, NT Wright, Mike Bird, Alastair Roberts, Peter Leithart, Hendrikus Berkhof, James Daane, Scot McKnight, Jerry Walls, Preston Sprinkle, Myk Habets, Richard Gaffin, Kevin Vanhoozer, et al, some of whom are calvinists, who know scholastic reformed theology in all its glory and irrationality and consider it unsatisfactory vis-a-vis biblical theology. The interlocutor’s grievances are misplaced.
Hello Jun and welcome
I’ll have to look into the names you’ve provided.
I know N.T. Wright, and Jerry Walls – but not the rest.
Thank you Eric! Staying silent is not an option!! (in my life experience opinion) Jesus spoke about issues openly and out of love and really what would anyone take issue over that for…. unless as you peal haha peel back the layers you can then see that what “the they say” doesn’t entirely harmonize with Scripture… unless you live as “if” it does… hmm no thanks I’ll stick to the basics and as lead learn the dialogue required of me.. seems being overly intellectual leads one to looki into the mirror and then forget what you look like at least in some instances😉..
That’s a lot of words for “I refuse to do my job as an apologist”. Sot101 is not a BBQ with Provisionist friends. It is an apologetic website with its sights set on Calvinism. So no, Josh is not wrong to expect that an apologetics website that specialises in critiquing Calvinism should be able to talk accurately about Calvinism.
BTW spurcalluth –
I had to delete your last post because you were getting a little too aggressive and angry.
This is a CHRISTIAN web-site – please make your posts reflect that.
Perhaps read the first four installments of my series of articles “The Acolyte Chronicles” and see if those of us that frequent this site don’t understand the arguments in favor of Calvinism all-too-well and are capable of articulating them accurately. I’m not sensing you are a seeker who is conflicted and here to be challenged in your beliefs. You are here primarily to mock.
Hundreds of scholarly works have been produced that refute Calvinism and indeed 70% of Christianity does not subscribe to it. This site is composed primarily of thought-provoking blog posts – not theological treatises. Don’t ask it to accomplish what it isn’t intended to do.
Instead, do what the central character in my story will eventually do: read your Bible cover to cover without aid of commentaries, sermons, podcasts, and other accoutrements of the Calvinist ecosphere. Take a year. Or five. But do it without “glasses.” See if you ever would have arrived at such theology unaided.
A possibility by its very nature is not determined to occur.
Sadly, many Christians today won’t sit still long enough to just read the scriptures and let the Holy Spirit teach them. They camp in places like Ephesians and eschew most of the OT. They lather up with commentaries and other Calvinist Echo Chamber study aids and then wonder why their belief system is never seriously challenged – whether TULIP, cessationism, or pigeon-holing OT promises and prophecies as valid only for national Israel with no fulfillment by the true Israel and true seed of Abraham. They convince themselves the only true students of the Word are Reformed and thus accuse them of being frivolous.
You are what you eat. Be careful of your spiritual food supply chain. Eat at the real Tree of Life.
Perhaps the most fundamental issue you are often sparring over with Calvinists is the definition of “Sovereignty”. They have allowed something other than the Bible to define this term in a way foreign to the language, resulting in their own special definition and nuances, and then they proceed to systematically reconcile everything to this foreign definition. It is consistent, but as the interlocutor correctly observes, consistency alone is not the measure of truth. I can start with 1+1=5 and develop a set of logically consistent derivations, all of which will be just as false as the original premise. But they will be internally consistent. TULIP is Exhibit A in internal consistency. I would expect nothing less from a trained lawyer like Calvin. But his premise is wrong – and before him, Augustine – and thus all the corollaries that follow.
A good word Eric as related to the “laymen.”
I share this for example, when in conversation with a Calvinist:
Calvin is not here.
I want to know what the person I am speaking with owns for themself as in regards to an interpretation of scripture. I can claim to have a general idea if they reveal themself, by definition, to be a calvinist, being Calvin’s work are of an historic record.
I point out i am not ‘Reformed’ either, but have been and am being transformed by the renewing of my mind, according to the Holy Spirit, in accordance with the Scriptures. I stand on the testimony of JesusChrist, as i came to salvation through the good news only in JesusChrist,
while reading the bible, testing as if true in history, that i then had to acknowledge the 66 books were the scriptures of truly God.
( Thank God for His word that continued through a line of church factions in history! Romans 8:*28 can be brought to bare here, where we can see the greek beyond what may appear to be any faction translational bias into english. And I am thankful to Him for all seeds, from many factions and philosophies, along the path that brought me to seek what the 66 books of the bible actually said.)
2+2=4. I do not need to exercise out every false equation to hold to the truth of the evidence and prove false that which denies what is true.
Just as i do not need to know every particular argument of every [false] religious claim in history, i do not have to read all of Calvin’s works , nor any other theological adherent to a system. It is the adherent’s responsibility to own their interpretation of (a) scripture in the scriptures.
If i want to speak to Calvin’s work, or to an adherent of any held belief/position , specifically, i will speak generally of the works and holding those works to the light of the scriptures revealed, to include about natural law as revealed.
From example, using someone not claiming to be a christian:
Elon Musks reveals generally to hold to the philosophy of Spinoza , so I quote back to him his own revealed understanding of Spinoza . ( i may point out whether i agree or don’t agree on his interpretation of Spinoza) Then i challenge the inconsistency. In this case i would use the natural law, in agreement with scripture, that points out Spinoza’s overall philosophical error & self contradicting belief towards pantheism. I would stand to speak –
“You view does not correspond to reality because God’s conscious communication is personal, as we see through the natural law of logic: Conscious communication is personal. “ ( And so the conversation moves on, or you speak in agreement to agree to disagree. Presently, There can be no conversation with Spinoza, I can only express it contending towards his works.)
Spinoza is not here. My conversation is focused on what Elon Musk owns himself, as to what he gathers Spinazo to speak.
Now, with the ReformedCalvinist Christian, or any christian theology thought in history, including my own, aren’t the scriptures sufficient for doctrine in history, as we seek to interpret truthfully through 66 books, that uphold the standard of 2 witnesses, even 3? The cloud of witnesses
set before us: Hebrews11 (.?!)
When talking to a Calvinist about the doctrine , found IN the scriptures, about salvation, whether I or Leighton Flowers represents Calvinism correctly or not is a rabbit trail when the conversation at hand is ‘ Am i repeating what you believe correctly’ and ‘Do you understand I may or may not agree with Leighton Flowers on a point of scripture, i am sharing with you my present interpretation on the scripture. I do not stand persuaded by Leighton Flowers, but by scripture. Do you stand persuaded by Calvin in history or by scripture?
In short: Tell me what you hold is the correct interpretation, for example , as Calvin and Luther told what they each believed in opposition to the catholic church, per their interpretation in light of scripture.
2 Timothy 2:7 ESV / 124 helpful votes
Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
Berean Study Bible
For we do not write you anything that is beyond your ability to read and understand. And I hope that you will understand us completely,
2Cor1:13 ( between 12&14 💕💝)
God grew up the younger fisherman’s thinking, and brought low the older Pharisee’s great learning .
As the Spirit leads you :
But I wanted to bring forward how they landed in the same place, believing and proclaiming the good news!
About the old& the new, the slain Lamb is standing, now our Savior & King, the remaining Bread of Life for those who do not refuse to love the truth , from the Father, celebrating , toDay: 1Cor 11:26