Original post by Ronnie W. Rogers
I agree with the Calvinist claim that the gospel is simple and clear, but I contend that Calvinism, by its very nature, complicates and obscures the simple and clear gospel.[1] Yes, someone can be saved when anyone says something like, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,” but the difference between what a Calvinist and Extensivist (non-Calvinist) mean when uttering those words is quite different.[2] Just the cache of extra-biblical concepts needed to characterize Calvinism as a biblical position is telling.
Their view requires concepts such as two wills (revealed and secret), two calls (external to all and internal to the elect only), two loves (salvifically speaking rather than different kinds such as love of a child or spouse), two levels of atonement (sufficient for the non-elect but efficient for the elect only), two parallel lines (to give an appearance of reconciling unconditional election, micro-determinism, and God’s salvific love for all with man’s freedom), two gospel offers (good faith offer which is not an actual offer as opposed to the Bible’s good offer of the gospel), compatibilism (but regularly speak libertarianly),[3] mystery (gloss of Calvinistically-generated contradictions), and using the distinction between man’s intellect and moral aspects to obfuscate the plight of the non-elect (i.e., the person cannot choose to believe).[4] In Calvinism, Scripture is not simple with depth but cryptic, with these concepts only accessible to Calvinism’s theological sophisticates.
For example, in Scripture, we see Jesus making good offers to repent and be saved (Matt 4:17; 11:20-21; Luke 5:32; 15:7; 24:47). Some Calvinists say Jesus was making a “good faith offer” (if there is such an idea) since, as a man, he did not know who the elect were. There is an insurmountable problem with imposing an unawareness of who the non-elect are upon Christ to sustain the idea that rather than presenting a good offer, he only presented a “good faith offer.”
Because Jesus said he always did the will of the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38; 17:4) and spoke not of his own initiative but what the Father wanted him to speak (John 3:11, 34; 5:19; 7:16; 8:26, 28, 38; 12:49-50; 14:10, 24, 31; 17:8). Furthermore, the Holy Spirit was upon Jesus and filling him without measure (Isa 61:1; Matt 12:18; Luke 3:22; 4:1, 14; John 3:34; Acts 10:38). Consequently, even if Jesus did not know, the Father and the Holy Spirit knew; therefore, the Calvinist doctrine of selective regeneration makes the Trinity complicitous in this unscrupulous misrepresentation. The obvious truth is that Jesus commanded them to repent because he was not willing that any would perish and desired that all would come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), something God has grace enabled everyone who hears the truth to be able to do.
Calvinist Kevin DeYoung asks, “Is God wise enough to make himself known? Is he good enough to make himself accessible? Is he gracious enough to communicate in ways that are understandable to the meek and lowly? Or does God give us commands we can’t understand and a self-revelation that reveals more questions than answers?”[5] My answer is yes; he is wise enough, good enough, and gracious enough, but I do not think Calvinists can consistently say yes in the same sense because Calvinism burdens God with withholding, for most, what is necessary to know him and make him accessible. And if Calvinism is true, God has surely not communicated in ways understandable to the meek, lowly, or the hoi polloi but only to the enlightened theological sophisticates.
The truth is, while God made Scripture to be exoteric (to be understood by the average person), Calvinism makes Scripture esoteric (truly understood by a chosen few). This is in spite of the fact that Calvinists still proclaim the perspicuity (clarity) of Scripture.[6]
[1] For example, Calvinist Kevin DeYoung states, “The saving message of Jesus Christ is plainly taught in the Scriptures and can be understood by all who have ears to hear it. We don’t need an official magisterium to tell us what the Bible means.” In his book Taking God at His Word (Wheaton: Crossway, 2014), 45.
[2] See my book Does God Love All or Some? Particularly chapters 20, 21, and 25.
[3] COMPATIBILISM: Determinism and moral responsibility are compatible, hence the name. This compatibility is not achieved by compatibilism being less deterministic than hard determinism. Rather, it is achieved by defining free choice to mean as long as a person chooses according to his greatest desire, he has made a free choice for which he is morally responsible; even though given the same past, he cannot choose differently in the moral moment of decision.
Consequently, the difference between compatibilism (soft determinism) and hard determinism is not to be found in the levels of the deterministic nature of each since they are the same. Rather, the difference is compatibilism simply contends people are morally responsible for their choices if they are made according to their greatest desire, and hard determinism says they are not. Therefore, moral responsibility is the product of defining free choice as a person acting in accordance with his greatest desire even though the desire is determined.
LIBERTARIAN: Man is not determined. He has the actual ability to choose between accessible options, at least in some scenarios. Libertarians contend determinism is not compatible with moral responsibility. Man possesses actual otherwise choice and can, therefore, act or refrain in the moral moment of decision, given the same past within a given range of options.
Extensivism argues God endowed man with this ability, which is an aspect of being created in the image of God. God determines the range of options. Adam’s range of options, the result of creative grace, was greater than mankind’s options after the fall. Fallen man can still choose between options, but the range of options is less than man had prior to the fall. This lessening includes losing the ability to make choices that are inherently righteous or spiritually restorative (making one right with God) based solely on creative grace. In order to make an inherently righteous choice or one that is spiritually restorative, God had to provision redemptive grace—grace enablements—which he did.
[4] Add to these Calvinism’s uniquely narrow definitions such as sovereignty being causal and only exercisable over determined or compatibly free beings, or the necessary adjectives in the TULIP.
[5] Kevin DeYoung, Taking God at His Word (Wheaton: Crossway, 2014), 69.
[6] DeYoung comments, “The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture is not a wild assertion that the meaning of every verse in the Bible will be patently obvious to everyone. Rather, the perspicuity of Scripture upholds the notion that ordinary people using ordinary means can accurately understand enough of what must be known, believed, and observed for them to be faithful Christians.” Kevin DeYoung, Taking God at His Word (Wheaton: Crossway, 2014), 59. I think the Calvinist system fails here as well.
br.d patheos.com has an article headlined
“The Bible is Not Obvious and Clear”
SEPTEMBER 6, 2019 BY FELLOW DYING INMATE
About the Countless Different Interpretations of the Bible
br.d , Another good article from
patheos.com is headlined
“3 Lenses With Which to View the So-Called ‘Clear Biblical Truths’ ” on
NOVEMBER 14, 2017 BY MATTHEW DISTEFANO
Which Lense is Most correct ?
Have a Great weekend everybody
br.d
Good morning Jeff!
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Yes – I agree with much of the wisdom in this article.
Many years ago – when I was a young fellow – I was dating a certain girl in the church I was attending.
Her family was very unhappy with her – because they were staunch Catholic and for them – her coming to the Lord – meant her leaving the Catholic church – which in their minds was the only *TRUE* form of Christianity.
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In particular – I remember my first conversation with her mother who very quickly brought up the subject.
Her mother started trying to insist the Catholicism was the *TRUE* form of Christianity.
And I was bold enough to relate the elements of paganism which were inherent within Catholicism.
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All of the facts I provided to her mother were historically correct.
But since those facts did not line up her biased opinion – she could not accept them.
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Her statement was “You can disagree with me if you want to – but if you do – you are simply wrong”
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She AUTO-MATIGALLY raised her belief system up onto a *DIVINE* pedestal
And her *DIVINE* pedestal allowed her to look DOWN at everyone else.
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I would later identify this practice as *SELF CANONIZATION* and I would discover the same exact process with Calvinists.
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There is a Youtube video created by “Premier Unbelievable?” which is titled: “William Lane Craig vs James White”
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This topic comes up in that discussion between those two men.
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Dr. Craig points out that *ALL* humans are subject to what scripture calls “The Bondage of Corruption”.
And that the scripture is divine – but we human beings who read scripture – do not have divine minds.
And our *INTERPRETATION* of scripture is very much subject to human biases.
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James White’s claim is that the human biases which Dr. Craig refers to exist for Bible readers who are NOT Calvinists.
But the Calvinist reading of scripture is *INSPIRED* by the Holy Spirit.
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What James is doing – is the exact same thing this Catholic mother was doing many years ago.
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Calvinists are pretty much taught that the Calvinist reading of scripture is *DIVINE*
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I happens all the time – I get in a conversation with a Calvinist and they will tell me – my reasoning is “HUMAN” reasoning while their reasoning is *DIVINE* reasoning.
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That of course – is a full-blown denial of “The Bondage of Corruption” which scripture itself describes.
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Additionally – the Calvinist is once again – in complete denial of his own belief system.
Part of the Calvinist belief system – is “TOTAL DEPRAVITY”
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But the Calvinist does not consider himself “TOTALLY DEPRAVED”
Everyone who is NOT a Calvinist reads scripture with some degree of depravity.
But the Calvinist’s reading of scripture is *DIVINE*
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What the Calvinist does – is *CANONIZE* himself.
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So the Calvinist has two Canons
1) He has the CANON of scripture
2) He has the CANON of his interpretation
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This process is of *SELF-CANONIZATION* is essentially the practice of raising a tradition of interpretation up onto a pedestal – and making it *DIVINE*
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The Calvinist is actually calling himself *DIVINE*
But of course – he cannot be honest enough with himself – to acknowledge it.
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Blessings!
And have a great week-end Jeff!
br.d :-]
Thank for your comments BR. I’ve certainly experienced the Calvinist believing himself to be right but have not had one come right out and say his interpretation was “divine.” The hubris and pride in that is unbelievable. I think my immediate reaction would be to just laugh in their face. Of course the other way to approach would be to say that in Calvinism, it’s obviously God’s sovereign will that I interpret scripture differently than them so in that sense any interpretation is “divine” because God caused my to interpret it that way!
br.d
Yes Andy!
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And of course – the Calvinist knows your reaction would be to laugh.
And that would be the opposite of what he wants.
He wants you to take him seriously.
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We can generally see – there are two kinds of statements.
There are statements which are made within EXPLICIT language
And there are statements which are couched within INFERENTIAL language.
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All adults realize there is a certain degree of risk in the use of EXPLICIT language.
Politicians for example – are experts at evading EXPLICIT language and couching statements within INFERENTIAL language.
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So Calvinists will use words which have LIBERTARIAN inferences – such as the word “Choice” for example.
It would not be unusual for a Calvinist to claim that within his belief system – people are held accountable for the “Choices” they make.
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But do people have “Choice” in Calvinism?
If it is infallibly decreed that you will turn left at TIME-T – then the option for you to NOT turn left at TIME-T does not exist for you – because that option was infallibly excluded at the foundation of the world.
The option for you to turn left at TIME-T is not granted existence within creation because it would falsify the decree.
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Consequently – you did NOT have a “Choice” between turning left and NOT turning left – because the option to NOT turn left – did not exist for you.
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So Calvinists will use the language of “Choice” to create a FALSE PICTURE of ALTERNATIVES available for people to choose.
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But the doctrine stipulates – an infallible decree does not grant the existence of ALTERNATIVES from that which it decrees.
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Good points!
Blessings!
br.d :-]
Hi Andy,
You said: I’ve certainly experienced the Calvinist believing himself to be right but have not had one come right out and say his interpretation was “divine.”
They may not say “divine” but they do say “biblical.” And “God-centered.” And that Calvinism IS the gospel.
Essentially, they are calling their theology “divine” without using that word. And they make you feel like disagreeing with them is disagreeing with God and His Truth.
And yeah, it’s funny to me that they fight people who disagree with Calvinism when, clearly, our views against Calvinism were “ordained” by Calvi-god for his glory and good pleasure. Our anti-Calvinist stance is just as predestined/caused by God and just as glorifying to God as their Calvinist stance. And yet they fight us and act like we’re wrong, like we’re dishonoring God somehow. Ironic and hypocritical.
Blessings to you, Andy! 🙂
Thanks Heather. Now that I think of it you are right, there are plenty of times I’ve heard them say “biblical” and “God-centered” inferring that their interpretation is the biblical and God-centered one and any other is not, which is the same thing just using different words. The Calvinist church I used to attend, when they build their new sanctuary building, put two huge signs in the entry lobby that said “High View of God” and “High View of Scripture”. After I left I thought about those signs, and thought about the hubris of them. The inference of course is that their church is identified by this and most other churches don’t have a high view of God and of scripture like they do, If that’s not the inference and it’s not a particular distinctive of that church but not others, what’s the point of the signs?
Andy,
“High View of God” and “High View of Scripture”… That’s the exact phrases I was thinking of too. I’ve seen this a lot with Calvinists.
And it’s funny because, in my mind, the more someone has to say something, the less true it often is – such as the person who can be trusted the least is often the one constantly claiming “I’m honest. I don’t lie. You can trust me. I can keep secrets, etc.”
But the truly honest, trustworthy person shows it by their life and earns trust over time, so they don’t have to keep making these claims, trying to convince people it’s true.
I wonder if the Calvinist’s constant claims of “we have a high view of God/Scripture” are almost to comfort themselves because they sense something is wrong, deep down. And of course, it’s to get naive people to let their guards down and turn off their spiritual radars and to just trust what’s being taught.
After all, the Calvinist pastor said he’s “preaching right from Scripture and has a high view of God and the Bible,” so he can’t be wrong, can he? 😉
br.d, Heather, and Everyone Else
I just found this article from the Los Angeles times website
latimes.com headlined
“Stanford scientist, after decades of study, concludes: We don’t have free will”
BY CORINNE PURTILL STAFF WRITER
OCT. 17, 2023 , so could it be that we Humans are living in a Giant Computer simulation like the 1999 Film “The Matrix” What is Reality ?
Could the Scientist be right ?
br.d.
Hello Jeff – here is something for you to think about.
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Is your brain – granted the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE on any matter?
If someone asks you a TRUE/FALSE question – does your brain have the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE on that question?
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If the answer is YES – then what your brain is doing – is making a LIBERTARIAN CHOICE.
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A LIBERTARIAN CHOICE – is a choice that *YOUR* brain makes
It is not a choice that is made *FOR* your brain – by an external mind.
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Consider the following example:
Billy is a 6 year old boy who is playing on the back padio.
Billy has a friend from next door – who is playing in his sand box.
The two of them are close enough to talk with each other.
Billy’s father comes out and tells Billy he is going to the Deli to get a treat for their supper.
Billy begs his father to bring him home a milk-shake from the Deli
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The problem with the milk-shake is that Billy is dangerously lactose intolerant.
The last time Billy had a milk-shake from that Deli – his parents had to rush him to the hospital
While Billy’s dad is at the Deli – Billy tells his friend that he is going to get a milk-shake.
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When Billy’s dad gets to the Deli – he looks at the milk-shake machine and decides he is NOT going to go through that experience again – so he *DETERMINES* that Billy will *NOT* have a milk-shake.
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When Billy’s dad gets home – he tells Billy “No Milk-shake” and he hands Billy a soda instead.
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Billy’s friend sees that Billy is *NOT* drinking a milk-shake
And Billy tells his friend “I CHOSE TO NOT HAVE THE MILK-SHAKE”
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Did Billy tell his friend the TRUTH?
Or did Billy tell a lie?
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The TRUTH is – Billy was not granted the option of making a CHOICE between having the milk-shake and NOT having the milk-shake – because *ONLY ONE OPTION WAS GRANTED TO BILLY*
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Billy did not have a CHOICE between having the milk-shake – and NOT having the milk-shake – because the option to have the milk-shake did not exist for Billy to choose.
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That story is the *MODEL* of how *DETERMINISM* functions.
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If *DETERMINISM* is TRUE – then your brain is never granted the function of CHOOSING between TRUE and FALSE because only *ONE OPTION* can be *DETERMINED*.
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Consequently – if DETERMINISM is TRUE and LIBERTARIAN CHOICE does not exist – then your brain is never granted the ability to CHOOSE between TRUE and FALSE on any matter.
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So those people who try to argue that DETERMINISM is TRUE – are shooting themselves in the foot.
Because DETERMINISM does not grant their brains the ability to discern between TRUE and FALSE on any matter.
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The same is TRUE for the Calvinist.
The doctrine of decrees does not grant the Calvinist brain the function of making a LIBERTARIAN CHOICE
Therefore the Calvinist brain is not granted the ability to CHOOSE between TRUE and FALSE on any matter.
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Gregory Koukl
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The problem with determinism, is that…..rationality would have no room to operate. Arguments would not matter, since no one would be able to base beliefs on adequate reasons. One could never judge between a good idea and a bad one. One would only hold beliefs because he has been predetermined to do so. Although it is theoretically possible that determinism is true…..no one could ever know it if it were. Everyone of our thoughts dispositions and opinions would have been decided for us by factors completely out of our control. Therefore in practice, arguments for determinism are self defeating.”
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Dr. John Searle – Professor Emeritus of the Philosophy of Mind and Language – Berkeley
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“Rationality only makes a difference where there is the possibility of irrationality.
And all rational activity logically presupposes Libertarian Free Will.
This becomes obvious when one realizes that rationality is possible only where one has a choice among various rational as well as irrational options.” End quote – (Rationality in Action)
Therefore since the liberty to choose between multiple options is the quintessential definition of Libertarian freedom, it LOGICALLY follows – where Libertarian Freedom does not exist, neither does the ability to think rationally.
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Blessings!
br.d
br.d
Here is a little joke about the belief that LIBERTARIAN CHOICE does not exist.
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There once was a farmer who drove around on his tractor all day
Trying to convince people to adopt his belief system
When he would see someone afar off – he would drive his tractor over to them – and park the tractor – and get off and try to persuade them about his belief system.
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His belief system was simply this:
Tractors don’t exist.
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To understand the moral of the story – LIBERTARIAN CHOICE is like a vehicle with which the mind navigates.
Just like the tractor is a vehicle with which the farmer navigates
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So the joke is – this farmer is totally reliant upon the very thing he insists does not exist.
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The same is TRUE for the Calvinist who insists LIBERTARIAN CHOICE does not exist.
That Calvinist had to make a LIBERTARIAN CHOICE between TRUE and FALSE – in order to be able to insist his belief system is TRUE.
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Thus we have what is called a SELF-DEFEATING argument.
I saw the article but didn’t read it. I just chuckled and told my son “So the scientist used their free will abilities to determine there’s no free will!?! Ironic.”
To me, concluding something like “there’s no free will” is so pointless and self-defeating that it’s not worth wasting time on.
And it makes me wonder, what purpose does it serve to declare there’s no free will?
Heather; “And it makes me wonder, what purpose does it serve to declare there’s no free will?”
Really sooooo true!!! Unless you hope there is NO freewill so much so that you have to shove a humanistic understanding of Who God is to justify something🤔 you and Br.D have great points and so silly of anyone to continue over and over to prove a point, that is self defeating…. see i don’t think every thought i have is a synaptic pathway controlled by my God i genuinely have a choice what i meditate on… God or man’s view of Him🌻
Psalm 119:15 NKJV — I will meditate on Your precepts, And contemplate Your ways.
Good to hear from you, Reggie. And good points.
Yeah, to me, a secular person (as I’m assuming the author of the article is, but I could be wrong) concluding that there’s no free-will will only lead to ridiculous conclusions not even worth considering. Especially because, as Br.d. pointed out, it just shoots them in the foot anyway. It would be like trying to make sense of nonsense.
But when a Christian claims there’s no free-will – in spite of the plain, commonsense teaching of the Bible – it doesn’t just shoot them in the foot and turn sense into nonsense, but it also does great damage to other Christian’s faith because it greatly damages God’s character, His Word, the gospel, people’s eternities, etc.. And so in that case, it needs to be addressed, fought against, and corrected.
That’s why I’ll address it if Christians say there’s no free-will, but I don’t care if secular people say it. Some fights are worth it, and some aren’t.
And as you said: “i genuinely have a choice what i meditate on… God or man’s view of Him”
And I think that’s why God delights in it when you choose to meditate on Him, to love, follow, and obey Him. It’s why it means something to Him – because you could’ve chosen something different, but you chose Him instead. You wanted HIM, despite the other options.
I can’t imagine how Calvinists can really think God finds any joy or glory in causing elect people to meditate on Him, to worship Him, to love Him. Real joy can only come from having real choices. Love and worship that is forced/manipulate/controlled is not real love at all. And I cannot imagine God getting any real delight or glory from that.
God bless you, Reggie! Thanks for your comment. 🙂
Heather
But when a Christian claims there’s no free-will – in spite of the plain, commonsense teaching of the Bible – it doesn’t just shoot them in the foot and turn sense into nonsense, but it also does great damage to other Christian’s faith because it greatly damages God’s character, His Word, the gospel, people’s eternities, etc..
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br.d
Yes! Well said!
Also – forces the Calvinist to live *AS-IF* what (for him) the Bible teaches is FALSE.
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In Calvinism everything that comes to pass within creation is said to be determined by an infallible decree.
No event is granted existence within creation unless that event is decreed.
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So we start to recognize some very critical stipulations in that:
1) Prior to the decree ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS exist for Calvin’s god to choose among – in the process of determining what will come to pass for any given event.
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2) That process of selection – requires that for every event Calvin’s god can select *ONLY ONE SINGLE OPTION* out of all ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS. Which means – he must *REJECT* all ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS.
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3) The option which he selects will then be granted existence
And the decree will make that event’s existence infallible.
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4) All of the ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS which he rejected are NOT granted existence.
And the decree makes their NON-Existence infallible.
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*** THIS THEN BACKFIRES ON THE CALVINIST ***
For every event
1) There is no such thing as an ALTERNATIVE OPTION granted to man.
2) All ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS were infallibly rejected prior to the decree.
3) Therefore ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS only exist prior to the decree
4) ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS are not granted existence within creation – and their NON-Existence is made infallible by the decree.
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THUS
5) Any time a Calvinist insists ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS exist for him to choose between – he is rejecting a critical stipulation of his doctrine.
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6) John Calvin understood the dilemma. He understood it is humanly impossible to live *AS-IF* ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS do not exist for a person to choose between.
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7) Calvin has to figure out a way to get around the dilemma his doctrine creates.
So he instructs the Calvinist to
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“Go about your office *AS-IF* nothing is determined in any part”
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8) Thus the Calvinist is forced to live *AS-IF* his doctrine is FALSE
9) Thus the Calvinist is forced to live *AS-IF* what the Bible teaches him is FALSE
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CONCLUSION:
Calvinism is the only Christian belief system – in which the believer is taught to treat the Bible *AS-IF* what it teaches is FALSE.
Well said, Br.d. (I tried sending this once, don’t think if it went through. Hopefully you don’t get a duplicate.)
I think only Calvinists are okay with the idea of people having no real choices but still being held accountable for what they do. And if they are not okay with it then they trick themselves into thinking they are – because that’s what good, humble, God-glorifying Calvinists do. They dissociate themselves from the real conundrums and contradictions of their theology, choosing to live in an upside-down world while convincing themselves it’s right-side up and that everyone else is upside down.
In the book “Once an Insider, Now Without a Church Home” (written by a woman who watched her church being taken over by Calvinism), the author said that she had a discussion once with the Calvinist pastor about Calvinism’s contradictions when it comes to moral responsibility, and he asked her this: “Why do you so strongly insist that ‘one must have a free choice in order to be morally responsible’?” (pg 144).
In response to him, I’d have said “Umm … let’s see … why do we believe that in order to be justly held accountable for our decisions, we have to have the right to make decisions!?! Umm … DUH … because it makes sense. Because it’s logical. And because it’s the only way it can be if God is a truly just God. If we had no choice about sinning – if God caused us to make the choices we do but then held us accountable for them, if He punished us for the things He caused – it would make God an unjust, irrational tyrant. Not the loving, righteous, holy, just God of the Bible that He is.”
Only Calvinists would say it’s okay to hold someone morally responsible for something they had no real choice about, that it’s okay for God to cause us to sin and to be unbelievers but then to punish us for it. It’s insane. And it’s even more insane that they can’t see the damage this does to God’s Word and character. Just goes to show the cult-like power and influence of Calvinism.
Sad. Because so many churches are falling for Calvinism (for their “high view of Scripture and of God”) and so many well-meaning Christians are held hostage by it.
br.d
Yes!
All excellent points!
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IMHO – the reason so many Churches are falling for Calvinism – is because Calvinism paints a glorified picture of itself – and people get seduced by that picture.
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However on the issue of whether Calvinists have CHOICE or not – it has been my experience with many Calvinists that which I communicate with – the idea that they don’t have CHOICE in the matter of anything is a consequence of the doctrine they are simply not willing to accept.
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Especially when one unpack-ages how that would mean their brains do not have the ability to choose TRUE from FALSE.
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That is such a devastating consequence – no Calvinist can acknowledge it.
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It really does resolve to the Calvinist being reduced to SUB-human.
Because it removes human functionality which all people consider NORMAL.
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Calvinists above all else – are intensely protective of their image!!!
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This was very clear in a presentation produced by “Premier Unbelievable?” where they intervewed William Lane Craig – and Calvinist Paul Helms
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Premier Unbelievable – I believe is out of the UK – and focuses on theological questions.
In this interview the host asked Dr. Craig if his belief system incorporated “Free-Will”
He affirmed it did – and then went on to provide a very precise explanation of LIBERTARIAN freedom.
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The host then asked Paul Helm’s the same – do Calvinist’s have Free-Will?
He said “Yes”
Then the host asked: “What kind of Free-Will do Calvinist’s have”?
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His answer was – “The kind that everyone has”
And that was it!
He would not provide any details.
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I could just see Dr. Craig’s face as he could easily recognize this a total evasion.
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Paul Helm’s did not want to elaborate on the kind of free-will Calvinists have – because it would easily be recognized as SUB-human. So he simply obfuscated the subject.
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Calvinists don’t want anyone to know those kinds of details about the belief system
Because people can easily connect the dots and recognize it makes the Calvinist SUB-human.
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The function of CHOICE is solely and exclusively reserved for Calvin’s god alone – in the exercise of divine sovereignty
Per the doctrine – the Calvinist has no control over any impulse that will come to pass in his brain.
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No Calvinist is going to acknowledge that – because if they did – no one would embrace their belief system.
br.d , So basically you disagree with the article and the Scientist who argues Free Will doesn’t exist
br.d
What I posted makes total sense.
If LIBERTARIAN CHOICE does not exist – and DETERMINISM is TRUE – then your brain would not have any way of knowing one way or another – because:
1) DETERMINISM – by its very nature – does not grant the human brain the ability to CHOOSE between TRUE and FALSE.
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2) The human function of discernment concerning the TRUTH-VALUE of any proposition – requires the human brain make a CHOICE between TRUE and FALSE on that proposition.
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3) Since DETERMINISM does not grant the human brain the option of CHOOSING between TRUE and FALSE – it follows – the human brain cannot discern TRUE from FALSE on the matter of anything.
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4) In such case – as Gregory Koukl stated – your brain would not have the capacity to know one way or the other whether DETERMINISM is TRUE or FALSE – because your brain wouldn’t have the capacity to discern TRUE from FALSE.
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All prominent Determinists understand this conundrum – and every prominent Determinist will acknowledge he has to live *AS-IF* DETERMINISM is FALSE in order to retain a sense of human normalcy.
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Here is Dr. Sean Carroll (Theoretical physicist – Atheist Determinist)
-quote
Every person in the world, no matter how anti-free-will they are, talks about people *AS-IF* they make decisions.
.
What Dr. Carroll is saying – is that as a Determinist – he knows DETERMINISM does not grant his brain the ability to make decisions.
.
Dr. William Lane Craig
-quote
Nobody can live *AS-IF* all that he thinks and does is determined by causes outside of himself.
Every Determinist recognizes he has to act *AS-IF* he has option(S) to weigh, and can decide on what course of action to take.
.
Here Dr. Craig is agreeing – – – every person who adopts DETERMINISM as a belief system – is forced to live *AS-IF* DETERMINISM is FALSE in order to retain a sense of human normalcy.
.
John Calvin also understood the dilema
-quote
“Hence as to future time, because the issue of all things is hidden from us, each ought to so to apply himself to his office *AS-IF* nothing were determined about any part.” (Concerning the eternal predestination of god)
.
.
So the point is this.
If DETERMINISM is TRUE – then your brain does not have the ability to discern TRUE from FALSE.
.
Every Calvinist who assumes his brain is granted the function of CHOOSING between TRUE and FALSE – is assuming his brain is granted the function of LIBERTARIAN CHOICE.
.
So what I’m telling you is – the writers of that article are shooting themselves in the foot.
.
It would be like you assuming you are human – try to prove humans don’t exist.
That is why DETERMINISM is a self-defeating belief system
.
If you’re having trouble understanding that – go back and read my post enough times so that your mind can connect the dots.
.
This may be a new subject for you
And it may take some pondering over the subject – in order for you to see the logic of it.
What do you think about the article, Jeff? Do you agree or disagree with the idea that there’s no free will?
Heather , br.d and Everyone Else
Often I’m Honestly Not Sure who or what to believe many times, with all the information, misinformation, disinformation and Fake News on the Internet, Social Media and in Real Life
I’d like to say that as a
Christian, I truly do hope Jesus Returns to Earth Real Soon , literally no later than 2025
To Eliminate all Evil, Suffering and Injustice in the World, once and for All Forever.
Countless people in America and Worldwide are Suffering in Silence from various problems,
Countless people are Very Afraid of the Future, in this Uncertain,Chaotic World often filled with sadness and suffering so I hope Jesus Returns Soon, literally no later than 2025
Imagine a Perfect World as the Bible Describes
A World with True Peace and Stability
Where there will be No More Suffering, Evil or Injustice, No War, No Racism, No Poverty, Or Hunger or Homelessness, No Fear or Uncertainty or Anxiety, No Crime, No Violence, No Bigotry or Hatred, No Animal Cruelty, No Loneliness, No Mental or Physical Disease or illness, No Hectic Stress Filled Rat Race , No Natural Disasters, etc , Where Love & Friendship, close face to face Friendship is Everywhere
See the Bible verse
Revelation 21:4
Hello Jeff,
And thank you for your wonderful post!
.
There are many people in this world who refuse to acknowledge what you so willingly and sincerely will acknowledge.
.
There are belief systems which are designed to give people a FALSE SENSE of confidence and assurance.
.
As you may suspect me to say – Calvinism is one of those belief systems.
.
FIRSTLY:
Calvin’s god creates the vast majority of the human individuals he creates – specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
.
John Calvin
-quote
Those who perish are DESTINED to hell by the eternal GOOD PLEASURE of god. Though the reasons do not appear, then they are NOT FOUND but MADE worthy of destruction. (Concerning the eternal predestination of god)
.
SECONDLY:
Calvin’s god creates a large percentage of believers – specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
.
John Calvin
-quote
The Lord…. INSTILLS INTO THEIR MINDS such a sense…..as can be felt WITHOUT the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11)
.
John Calvin
-quote
He ILLUMINES ONLY FOR A TIME to partake of it; then he….strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8)
.
CONSEQUENTLY:
No Calvinist has any CERTAINTY of what he was specifically created for – because they have no way of knowing if Calvin’s god has deceived them with a FALSE SENSE of salvation.
.
.
From your last post here – it is obvious you have a very kind and sincere heart.
And you are to be applauded for your sincerity and your honesty
.
My hope and prayer for you – is that you would keep on asking and seeking the Lord as you have been.
.
But my greater hope and prayer for you – is that you would continue to grow and mature – in the process of being a CRITICAL THINKER.
.
Learning how to ask questions – and learning to exercise your mind to be able to THINK RATIONALLY so that your discernment will continue to grow and mature.
.
I am very heartened – especially by your last post!
I thank you for it!
Your friend
Br.d :-]
Jeffster: “Often I’m Honestly Not Sure who or what to believe many times, with all the information, misinformation, disinformation and Fake News on the Internet, Social Media and in Real Life
I’d like to say that as a Christian, I truly do hope Jesus Returns to Earth Real Soon…”
Amen, brother! It’s my prayer every day.
About Human Suffering, Myself and others are reminded of the Bible verse
Revelation 22:20 which says
“He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.” The sooner Jesus Returns the Better
I told a fellow Christian friend of mine back in 2020 that for the sake of Argument, If I was God , I would Not just passively allow Human Suffering, Evil & Injustice to Continue. That if I was God I would simply clap my hands and make the World into a Perfect Utopian Paradise . Just to Clarify
I’m an Evangelical Protestant, Not a
Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormon. I base my views on Heaven and the Coming New Earth on
Revelation Chapters 21 & 22
I also suggest reading the various editions of the book
Heaven: by Randy Alcorn , it’s Superb
Plus, Countless people in America and Worldwide are Unable to Enjoy their Lives in the Present, because of their painful pasts and they are Afraid, Very Afraid of the Future , the sad reality is for many Suffering people things Never Get Better , just worse and worse
Countless people feel as if they are walking on Eggshells
Very Afraid of the Future
Myself and Countless Other Christians hope Jesus Returns soon , no later than 2025
Countless people are Suffering and Miserable, Lonely and Very Afraid of the Future, in these uncertain chaotic Unpredictable times , they desire and crave True, Peace, Stability and Happiness that will ONLY Exist in Heaven and the New Earth, these Christians realize that this True, Peace, Stability and Happiness is Impossible in this present Earthly Life, it will Only Come in Heaven and the New Earth
No one in Heaven and the New Earth will be Afraid of
“Suffering, Evil or Injustice, No War, No Racism, No Poverty, Or Hunger or Homelessness, No Fear or Uncertainty or Anxiety, No Crime, No Violence, No Bigotry or Hatred, No Animal Cruelty, No Loneliness, No Mental or Physical Disease or illness, No Hectic Stress Filled Rat Race , No Natural Disasters, etc ” because Everyone in Heaven and the New Earth will Know and have Peace of Mind that None of those things will Ever Happen to Anyone at Anytime, it can’t and won’t happen, so no one will ever be Afraid or Worried, There will be True Peace and Peace of Mind Knowing these horrible things will Never Happen Again, there will be Love and Close Face to Face Friendship, Fellowship for Everyone, Never Again will anyone suffer from crippling, debilitating loneliness, Social Isolation, etc.
Everyone in Heaven and the New Earth will Know for a Fact that Nothing could possibly go wrong, Nothing will possibly go wrong
br.d, Heather, etc.
I should have added
The Bible verse
Matthew 6:10 says
“Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” English Standard Version , I truly do hope Jesus Returns and Ends All Evil, Suffering and Injustice in the World, Once and For All Forever, by the End of 2025 , What do you think of my other comments of
yesterday November 7, 2023
Jesus cannot return soon Enough,
Everyone in Heaven and the New Earth will Know for a Fact that Nothing could possibly go wrong, Nothing will possibly go wrong, Nothing will ever go wrong
It deeply upsets me and other Christians the Horrible Sufferings in America and Worldwide
br.d
Yes – very true!
We Christians here in America are extremely blessed even with the degree of corruption that exists among us.
.
There are Christians in other lands – who are brutalized and murdered for the name of Jesus.
We Christians here in America are isolated from that.
.
We bless and thank the Lord for each and every day he gives us to live in peace.
But scripture tells us what is coming.
.
br.d
The Calvinist Christian website
carm.org has an article by
Matt Slick headlined
“Does everything happen for a reason?” on May 11, 2016
It’s an interesting article, some say of course everything happens for a reason, but that’s not the same as everything happening for a
Purpose
br.d
Hello Jeff
.
The Calvinist – as you must be aware at this point in time – embraces a belief system that is in conflict with itself.
.
Calvinism incorporates what is called DUALISM
.
In Calvinism’s form of DUALISM “Good” and “Evil” are Co-Equal, Co-Necessary, and Co-Complimentary.
.
In scripture the believer is taught that it is forbidden to commit evil that good may come.
And it is forbidden to call “Evil” good – and to call “Good” Evil.
But that rule does not apply to Calvin’s god – because it would compromise divine sovereignty.
.
In Calvinism – every sin and every evil is FIRST CONCEIVED in the mind of Calvin’s god.
Those sins and evils which he CONCEIVES in his mind – he then MAKES come to pass INFALLIBLY.
.
Thus we have the following:
Every sinful evil impulse that will come to pass within the human brain is FIRST CONCEIVED within Calvin’s god’s mind.
.
Calvin’s god’s decree then MAKES each sinful evil impulse come to pass within the human brain INFALLIBLY
.
Creation – and thus the human brain is FALLIBLE
.
And it is impossible for that which is FALLIBLE to resist that which is INFALLIBLE
.
Therefore in Calvinism – every sinful evil impulse that will come to pass within the human brain is MADE IRRESISTIBLE
.
Now the typical Calvinist – is perfectly comfortable emphasizing “Good” events which Calvin’s god MAKES infallibly come to pass by a decree which does not grant any ALTERNATIVE.
.
But the typical Calvinist is NOT comfortable emphasizing “Evil” events which Calvin’s god MAKES infallibly come to pass by a decree which does not grant any ALTERNATIVE.
.
Consequently – Calvinists spend a great deal of time involved in DOUBLE-SPEAK TAP-DANCE ROUTINES trying to obfuscate the “Evil” which the doctrine stipulates Calvin’s god FIRST CONCEIVES and then MAKES TOTALLY IRRESISTIBLE to the human brain – and doe not grant man a CHOICE in the matter of what he decrees to IRRESISTIBLY come to pass within man’s brain.
.
So I can already tell you what Matt will be doing is working to MAKE JUSTIFICATIONS for sinful evil events which are CONCEIVED in Calvin’s god’s mind – and then MADE IRRESISTIBLE to the human brain.
.
For John Calvin who is the UNFLINCHING TRUE Calvinist – Calvin’s god can create whatever evil he wants to create and the Calvinist is required call whatever Calvin’s god makes come to pass “Good”.
.
So you can see how close to the line – the Calvinist comes to calling Good Evil and calling Evil Good.
.
Therefore what we have in Calvinism’s form of DUALISM is a system of GOOD-EVIL
And Calvin’s god is a god of GOOD-EVIL
.
Calvin’s god is predominantly MALEVOLENT towards his creatures
And minimally BENEVOLENT towards his creatures.
.
He creates the vast majority (THE MANY) specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire for his GOOD pleasure.
.
That is the component of DUALISM which is incorporated into Calvinism.
And Matt is going to have a vested interest in making Evil appear LESS Evil.
.
You should be able to understand what his urgency is.
.
Blessings!
br.d
It frustrates me no end to read Calvinist like Slick speak of God permitting and allowing evil. He knows better. His theology has no place for God just permitting and allowing. As Calvin would correct Matt… God thought all evil up, decreed it to occur and brought it about all for his good pleasure. Please Mr Slick, stop with the “permit” and “allow” language and man up to your evil theology!
Hello Larry
.
Yes – this is one of the unfortunate effects which Calvinism has on its advocates.
It teaches them to justify the use of deceptive language.
.
Calvinists practice what linguists call INSIDER language
This is a language practice in which a group will take words or terms which have STANDARDIZED meanings – and the group will ATTACH altered meanings to those words.
.
As you point out – Calvinism’s use of “Permission” language is a primary example.
.
John Calvin explains
-quote
When [Augustine] uses the term “Permission” THE MEANING WHICH HE ATTACHES TO IT will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of god is the supreme and primary CAUSE of all things….(Institutes 1, 16, 8)
.
Here you can see what is happening.
Calvin reasons as follows:
1) What Calvin’s god CAUSES by divine decree – he “Permits”
2) What Calvin’s god DOES NOT CAUSE by divine decree – he does not “Permit”
.
So what we clearly see here – is words such as “Permit” and “Allow” are being used as REPLACEMENT words for the word CAUSE .
.
The Calvinist does not want to tell people his god CAUSES by infallible decree – every sinful evil impulse that will come to pass within man’s brain – and MAKES those impulses come to pass infallibly – and thus IRRESISTIBLY within man’s brain.
.
The Calvinist knows if he tells people the TRUTH – they will reject the doctrine – and Calvinism will go the way of the dinosaur.
.
So they use REPLACEMENT words.
In this case – the words “Permit” or “Allow” are used instead of CAUSE
.
.
If you think about it – what the Calvinist is doing with words – is creating what scripture calls a FALSE BALANCE.
.
A FALSE BALANCE occurs – when a weight is placed on a balancing scale – and that weight has an IDENTIFIER or label – which states its weight – but the person who puts that weight on the scale has ALTERED its weight.
.
The money changer in the temple for example – can cheat his customer by putting a weight that is slightly heavy on the scale – making it the case that his customer has to give him more coins than he really should be giving him.
.
Thus with every transaction – he cheats his customers.
.
Words and terms – are a CURRENCY of exchange.
He who can ALTER the values of words and terms – can take advantage of others – the same way the dishonest money change cheats his customers with ALTERED weights on the balancing scale.
.
The money changer refuses to conform to the STANDARDS which are set for weights
Those STANDARDS are established to ensure people are not cheated.
As long as all parties conform to the STANDARD no one gets cheated.
.
The Calvinist follows the same pattern as the money changer.
He refuses to conform to the STANDARD meanings of words and terms.
.
The money changer gains an advantage by “slight of weight”
The Calvinist gains an advantage by “slight of words”
.
Thank you for your post!
Blessings!
br.d
I totally agree, Larry. This is one of the things that makes Calvinism so deceptive, so cult-like. so “slick.” They speak on multiple levels and have hidden definitions for words. I think it’s how it slips in and spreads so easily, because the average Christian is unaware of what they really mean underneath the things they say.
Like Br.d. points out, Calvinists have their insider language. And those in-the-know will catch on and know what they’re saying. But those not-in-the-know won’t, and they’ll be deceived because they are trusting that they can take what the Calvinist says at face-value, trusting that the Calvinist says what he means and means what he says.
Their deceptive tactics bother me so much more than if they just came right out and were honest with their bottom-line beliefs. And I think it’s how they’re taking over churches. (I actually just published a post on this very thing, called “The 9 Marks of a Calvinist Cult” at anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com.)
Blessings to you all!
That’s right Larry!
Calvinists claim that God ordains and decrees it all (per Calvinism) and then claim that He just “permits” and “allows” it (like the rest of us)! That are always wanting to have it both ways!
br.d, Heather, Larry, it’s me Jeff aka Jeffster again
About the Topic of God, Free Will and
Human Suffering, a person earlier this November 2023 typed on Social Media
“God in Christianity is the ultimate mafia boss.
The Mafia boss demands that you give something of value to protect you from his own violence. This is the same as God.
God isn’t saying “Pray, believe and glorify me and I will protect you from a rival God.” He is saying “Pray, believe and glorify me and I will protect you from my wrath.”
If the consequences of exercising your free will are so dire that exercising your free will causes eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell, then you really don’t have free will, just as the Mafia boss doesn’t give you free will.
Progressive theologians focus on the NT loving and hippy parts of Jesus’ message. However, they ignore the immoral repugnant basis of Christianity in general. Or progressives will deny the resurrection which places them outside Christianity entirely. I find it fascinating how progressive Christians try to put lipstick and a modern spin on an immoral bronze age belief system.”
Hello Jeff,
I can understand what the author of that article is trying to say. However, I think he’s looking at it from the wrong angle.
Many people think of it like this: “We are all bound for heaven as long as we keep doing good enough, but God is just watching and waiting for when we screw up so that He can punish us. God holds hell over our heads to keep us in line. He threatens us with punishment if we mess up too much.”
This seems to be the way the author presents it, that God threatens to punish us if we step out of line.
But I see it this way: God isn’t threatening to punish our sins if we step out of line. He isn’t threatening us with hell or holding it over our heads. He is warning us that that’s the path we are on, and He is offering to save us from that path. He pleads with us to accept the salvation He offers so that He save us from punishment.
As you quoted, the author says “Pray, believe and glorify me and I will protect you from my wrath.”
The thing the author fails to understand is that we got ourselves into the mess we’re in, and God is trying to save us from the consequences of our own choices. And not only that, but He made salvation possible for us by first dying in our place. He paid a very heavy price for us, so that we don’t have to pay it.
God is not threatening to punish us if we’re not good enough. He took the punishment that we deserved so that He could make us “good enough,” so that we could be saved from punishment. And that’s a big difference.
Blessings to you, Jeff!
br.d
Hello Jeff
.
The mafia boss analogy breaks down and collapses in the face of a loving Father who sends his only begotten Son to die and pay the price – for the sins of those who killed him.
.
Those whom he created – and lovingly placed within a garden of Eden.
.
But as you will remember – the temptation man was faced with in the Garden – was the temptation to give up being ONE with God – in order to be LIKE God.
.
The serpent – as is detailed in Isaiah 14:13
-quote
“I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. ”
.
Lucifer was the original creature with the desire to give up being ONE with God – in order to be LIKE God.
.
The craving that Lucifer developed in his heart – was the very craving he understood he could temp man with.
.
.
Agape love (Greek ἀγάπη ) is SELF SACRIFICING Love.
.
You will not find self-sacrificing love in a Mafia boss.
.
The poor unfortunate person who attributes those characteristics to God – is simply looking at God through the lens of his own characteristics.
.
The critical component of the temptation in the Garden was to get man to perceive God as selfish.
.
We pray for that poor unfortunate person – because he is in bondage to the very characteristics he attributes to God.
.
***HOWEVER***
The god of Calvinism is a completely different story!!
.
Here we have a deity – who designs the vast majority of the creatures he creates – specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his GOOD pleasure.
.
As John Calvin states it:
-quote
By the eternal GOOD PLEASURE of god THOUGH THE REASON DOES NOT APPEAR they are NOT FOUND but MADE worthy of destruction. – (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121)
.
Additionally – Calvin’s god designs a large percentage of BELIEVERS also for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his GOOD pleasure.
.
These believers – he creates as CHAFF believers – divinely deceiving them with a FALSE SENSE of salvation.
.
John Calvin explains
-quote
The Lord….instills into their minds such A SENSE …..as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11)
.
-quote
He ILLUMINES ONLY FOR A TIME to partake of it; then He….strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8)
.
.
In Calvinism – all of the promises to the believer are identified as the ENUNCIATED will of Calvin’s god – which in many cases is the exact opposite of the SECRET will of Calvin’s god.
.
So when the Calvinist reads “you are beloved” within scripture – he has no way of knowing if the SECRET will of Calvin’s god (as it pertains to himself) is the exact opposite.
.
These Calvinists will go through their whole lives having FALSE PERCEPTIONS of salvation – which have been decreed to infallibly come to pass within their minds.
.
They will eventually wake up in the lake of fire – and at that point realize they were created as CHAFF believers.
.
Their purpose is serve his GOOD pleasure by existing for eternity in fire and torment.
.
Now many would say – that god is even more horrible than a Mafia boss.
.
That is why John Calvin declared that his conception of god’s intent for mankind (the infallible decree) filled him with a sense of horror.
Br.d.: “The mafia boss analogy breaks down and collapses in the face of a loving Father who sends his only begotten Son to die and pay the price – for the sins of those who killed him.”
So well said! Great job putting it in a perfect nutshell. 🙂
br.d
Thank you Heather!!
And I always appreciate your kind and caring heart the Lord has blessed you with.
Growing into the measure and stature of Christ! :-]
Thank you, Br.d. I appreciate that. 🙂
The book Heaven by Randy Alcorn is Superb , do we think that
Heaven and the New Earth will a
Theocracy ? I discussed Heaven and the New Earth on my blog
About my Mother
ripmrswinters.blogspot.com
It’s really sad how actress
Suzanne Somers passed away on
Oct 15, 2023 at
Age 76 , but on the bright side, she is alive, fully conscious and self-aware , every bit as much as I am right now as I type these words , her Final Destination will be the New Earth ,
It’s a Real pleasure to interact with everyone here . I truly do hope Jesus Returns Very Soon , Real Soon, no later than the year 2025
br.d
Hello Jeff
I’m not familiar with that book
And I didn’t know Suzanne Somer’s was a believer in Jesus
.
Perhaps I don’t get out enough! :-]
br.d , Yes Suzanne Somers was a Christian , multiple online sources confirm this
I just sent my daughter home with a copy of Randy Alcorn’s “Heaven” today. I loved it. I wasn’t aware that he was a Calvinist when I read it, and I don’t recall seeing the doctrine in it. In fact, I’ve read his novels too, and didn’t recall that theology, so it rather surprises me. But then again, I wasn’t looking for it.
I landed in the non-calvinist camp several years ago because I couldn’t get past the idea that a “good” God could create people that he knew were going to be condemned, and not provide them with a way out. My church is currently doing the new city catechism sermon series, so when my pastor mentioned that it was written by Tim Keller, I immediately (during the service lol) looked up whether he was a Calvinist, and that’s how I found your website… Which honestly, is a more interesting read than my pastor’s sermons, even on a good day.
I will have to re-read the book when I get it back and see if I can identify calvinistic teachings in it. Anyway, thank you for this website. My family is talking about finding a different church, but we’re not sure where to go. Are there any denominations that are intentionally non-calvinist?
Thanks for your help.
br.d
Thank you very much Pamela – and welcome
.
What you will find with any Calvinist literature – is that it is filled with DOUBLE-SPEAK.
We understand that language is the outward expression of human thought.
The outward expression of DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS is going to be DOUBLE-SPEAK.
.
The reason this is the case with Calvinists is because the doctrine is so radical that no Calvinist can emotionally embrace it and at the same time retain any sense of human normalcy.
.
The doctrine stipulates that every instance in time is 100% meticulously pre-determined having been fixed by infallible decree.
Every instance in time cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
Every sinful impulse which comes to pass within the Calvinist brain – cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
.
So in order to retain a sense of human normalcy – the Calvinist is forced to live *AS-IF* the doctrine of decrees is FALSE.
.
So we have a very strange phenomenon in Calvinism
He will assert the doctrine as TRUE – while simultaneously treating the doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE.
.
That is why – NON-Calvinists have perennially observed – the Calvinist talks like a Calvinist – but he lives like an Arminian.
.
The Calvinist knows – if he tells the TRUTH about his doctrine – other believers are going to reject it.
Consequently – Calvinists spend a great deal of time and energy trying to make their doctrine APPEAR to be what they calculate NON-Calvinists will accept.
.
So there is a very unfortunate (yet consistent) degree of dishonesty within Calvinist representations.
.
One has to be extremely careful when reading any Calvinist literature.
A large percentage of it contains strategically designed FALSE representations.
They are representations – which the Calvinist calculates the NON-Calvinist will accept.
.
It takes time for the NON-Calvinist to learn and recognize when a Calvinist’s representation is FALSE
And it is very easy to be mislead by FALSE representations.
.
Blessings!
br.d
Pamela: “My family is talking about finding a different church, but we’re not sure where to go. Are there any denominations that are intentionally non-calvinist?”
Hello, Pamela. Sorry to hear that you guys might have to find a new church. That’s never easy to do. (We left the church we had been at for 20 years because Stealth Calvinism took over. I blog about it at anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com.)
But I applaud you for being willing to make the change, and for researching things for yourself instead of merely accepting whatever you’re told. If more people did that, the Church probably wouldn’t be in the mess it is.
I’m not sure if there are any specifically non-Calvinist denominations. It seems to me that we have to carefully evaluate each and every church, regardless of denomination. Ours was an Evangelical Free Church, and I know they are being slowly taken over by Calvinism. And the SBC has had a lot of problems with it. So I’d definitely be cautious about those. And Lutheran, from my research, has Calvinist leanings.
You might be better off trying a non-denominational church or a community church. But be careful of other issues with those churches, such as wokeness, prosperity gospel, charismatic/pentacostal-type things (speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, etc.), “universalism-type” theology, etc.
I really think we are in a time when we have to carefully evaluate each church on its own, when we can’t trust a label anymore. May God help your family find the right church. God bless!
Heather,
The one word that stands out to me, regarding calvinism, is the word, “Evangelical”, and “Baptist”.
For example, the Southern Bapists don’t mind making a home for Calvinists.
Any time someone states the word, “Evangelical”, that puts a sour taste in my mouth. It states, “Calvinism” to me. Even “Liberty University” fell into it.
My advice is to read every church’s, “We believe” statements, and some of those will be pretty descriptive of calvinist beliefs. Sometimes, they are hidden in the words, but you can recognize them.
Ed Chapman
br.d
Yes!
For me – I was a believer for many years prior to the point where the labels “Evangelical” and “Calvinism” had anything in common.
.
Calvinists have been working very hard to STEALTH infiltrate any NON-Catholic form of Christianity
And especially those NON-Catholic forms of Christianity which had the greatest growth statistics.
The reason for that – is because expansion is Calvinism’s highest priority
One will notice that Calvinisms – out of all theologies – exhibits a very intense urgency for marketing itself
.
Historically – Calvinism rejected charismatic forms of Christianity
And maintained a strong emphasis on the doctrine of cessation.
.
However the charismatic movement sprang up in the 70s
Charismatic denominations began to exhibit the greatest growth statistics.
.
Since Calvinism’s highest urgency is to expand and market itself – it quietly moved from its strict stance on cessation – and started working to STEALTH infiltrate charismatic churches.
.
I might be wrong – but I believe it was then – that Calvinists started adopting “Evangelical” as a label simply because they wanted to align themselves with whatever form of Christianity had the best grown statistics.
.
Calvinists are like Chameleons.
They will MASQUERADE their doctrine in whatever form they calculate will provide the best ROI
Most Calvinist churches today wear a highly ARMINIANIZED mask – simply because most Calvinists find the the doctrines implications of divine evil unpalatable.
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I bump into Calvinists all the time – who reject John Calvin’s writings because he does not flinch at explicating the fact that Calvin’s god creates and designs the vast majority of the human population – as well as a large percentage of believers – specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
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Calvinists do not want to hear – they have a high probability of having been created for a lake of fire.
And Calvinist pastors are well aware of that fact.
And that is why they MASQUERADE their doctrine – trying to make it as ARMINIANIZED as possible.
Ed, Yep, that’s how I see it too. “Evangelical” and “Baptist” both raise my eyebrows. Maybe unfairly because many churches within those denominations are not Calvinist, but I think it’s spreading in them so much that we need to be careful. Blessings! 🙂
Br.d.: “One will notice that Calvinism – out of all theologies – exhibits a very intense urgency for marketing itself.”
Totally! I agree with Kevin Thompson that Calvinism is a cancer. And it needs a host to feed on, which is in many cases evangelical or Baptist churches. Calvinism is more about hijacking other churches and those who are already Christians than it is about evangelizing non-believers. I wouldn’t be so bothered by it, though, if they were upfront about their views and agendas. It’s the stealth part that gets me. The deception and manipulation.
br.d
Yes!!!
Big time!!!
Well said Heather!!
Hi Jeff, I looked up your blog. So sorry to hear about your mother passing away. (My mother-in-law passed away in 2014 too, from a brain tumor.) It sounds like you had a good relationship with her. I hope so. I noticed you posted something about Fred Rogers. I really like him too. I’ve read a few biographies on him in the last couple years, and I always enjoy reading about him. It’s peaceful and relaxing. Such a good guy. We need more like him, 🙂
God bless.
br.d, Heather and Everyone Else, Glad you like my blog
Do we think from a Biblical Perspective that Heaven and the New Earth will be a Theocracy ?
Some have said that to a certain extent God does want human beings to suffer, because they say it builds character, helps them grow closer to God, etc
But these same people also stated that if God does want human beings to suffer to a certain extent, God still certainly does Not like it when people suffer . What do we think ? On the blog I mentioned
CBS Storybreak and
“How to Eat Fried Worms” among other topics, All Worth reading
Like I said Jesus cannot Return Soon Enough
br.d
Hello Jeff,
Concerning Heaven – Jesus instructs us t pray “Thy kingdom come – thy will be done – on earth as it is in heaven”
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So given that – I think that gives us a pretty clear picture of what we might call a Theocracy.
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And in scripture God says:
My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.
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And in Revelations is says:
Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
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So what I see – is a God of love – who wants to express his love on his creatures.
But the Apostle Paul tells us: Love does not seek its own
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And I see God’s love as giving and caring desiring the best for his creatures.
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However – it is true that he sets before his creatures – both life and death – because he wants them to be free to choose.
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He doesn’t want a bride that is forced to love him – or does not have a choice in the matter.
He wants her to love him for who he is – not because he can decree “Love” impulses to infallibly come to pass in her brain which do not grant any ALTERNATIVE
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When God says – behold I set before you both life and death – he also pleads with his people that they “choose life that you may live”
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So personally – I see heaven as a place where God’s people will consider themselves to be totally blessed to be with a wonderful loving, caring, and giving creator.
Hi Jeff, no one knows yet exactly how heaven will look/act, but I do think God will still be ruling in heaven. But He will be a good, benevolent, kind, loving ruler, so we won’t be afraid of His rulership. We will want a God like that ruling.
But I’m not sure what you mean when you said: “Some have said that to a certain extent God does want human beings to suffer, because they say it builds character, helps them grow closer to God, etc.”
Are you asking if we think there will be suffering in heaven? Or is it just about conditions now on earth?
I think there will be no more suffering in heaven because suffering is the result of sin, and sin will be no more in heaven.
But on earth, I think it’s an inevitable result of being given the right to make real choices. Suffering is the consequence of sin affecting us, other people, and nature itself (in the Genesis Fall).
I think God does not want us to suffer (which is why He’s so careful to spell out boundaries and rules, a way of living that will help us have the best life possible). But since He wanted to give people the right to choose, He had to allow the possibility of sin and suffering, even if He doesn’t like it.
But I think His plan is still to do away with suffering, and He will do that in heaven. And in the meantime, on earth, He tries to keep us on the best path possible, and He hurts when we hurt, and He promises to work all the pain into something good. It’s His way of turning the bad (which He didn’t cause or want) into something good.
I’m not sure if that answers your question, but it’s what popped into my head. Blessings!
Br.d.: “So personally – I see heaven as a place where God’s people will consider themselves to be totally blessed to be with a wonderful loving, caring, and giving creator.”
Amen to that!
Hey everone,
Can I kindly suggest that you trade emails and discuss all topics outside of soteriology (Calvinism) on another platform.
Not only does it make for a lot of emails in my inbox but I’m guessing it dilutes our message when the passers-by come to read some of our more pertinent comments about how God provides for all!
br.d
Thanks FOH
I think what would be preferred is that we has people to refrain from posting comments or questions unrelated to Calvinism in order to minimize posts coming into peoples emails.
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Thanks
FOH,
WADR (with all due respect), As if in a court of law, “I object! Goes to motive of God’s character in Calvinism as to what his character is after we die, since religion is all about the afterlife anyway.”
My objection may get sustained, but…
FWIW, I’ve got 13,948 emails that I need to delete at some point in my life, after deleting some 40,000 last year.
FOH, I understand the frustration of too many emails. I myself don’t get notifications of new comments, so I’m probably not as affected by it as you are. However, it seems to me that hardly any comments are posted here anymore, compared to what it used to be like. So I like seeing the few comments that do pop up. At least someone is sharing ideas and inviting conversation, even if they are not totally on point for Calvinism. (I myself prefer reading and writing comments on a blog instead of, say, on a YouTube video or something. Blog comment sections allow for a better back-and-forth and deeper connection, I think.)
And I think that discussing God’s rulership in heaven and whether or not He wants suffering is akin to discussing Calvinism’s idea of sovereignty and that God causes bad things for a reason. It might not be exactly the same, but I think it falls within the realm enough to be on this blog. But maybe that’s just me.
Either way, I’m still happy to see any new comments that pop up here, especially since I’m a rather lonely, introverted person who doesn’t comment in any other comment section on any other platform.
And personally, I don’t think it does water the message down. I think it actually brings the people who comment here to life more, helping us connect more with what they say and understand where they are coming from. It might not get us to the point faster, but it makes the relationships and conversations deeper. And I like that. (But I’ll try to limit my comments here, to help cut down on your overloaded inbox.)
God bless! 🙂
Heather; “And I think that discussing God’s rulership in heaven and whether or not He wants suffering is akin to discussing Calvinism’s idea of sovereignty and that God causes bad things for a reason.”
I actually agree 100% Heather though i do get many emails as well… and if i have time i read them all!!! if not i can choose not too ie true freedom not compatibilistic freedom (corresponding to my strongest desire). But that being said, i actually trust doctrine in general matters, because if we err in our doctrine hmm shouldn’t we keep a teachable mindset!! I have come to find soteriology, eschatology etc. is tied into a person’s world view in many ways.. So though i find it important i do understand what FOH is saying yet I’m still trying to figure out did Paul consider this issue or soteriology etc. secondary??? the fact is that God elevates His Word above His name.
Psalm 138:2 NKJV — I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
So anyway I have read some of Randy Alcorn’s book, but to be fair and honest when i realized his soteriology view i stopped. Ugh not saying this is right or wrong, but again i find when I’m trusting God and His Word above man then the clarity & inconsistencies of calvinism are much more clear! 🌻
Heather:
I respect your opinion and appreciate what you write so often (if not always!).
But my points and suggestions are:
1. It makes our good information hard to find with so much other stuff in the thread.
2. It is off topic in many people’s mind (even if not in yours) (will they unsubscribe?)
3. What I did for years on this site was post daily (after my daily through-the-Bible reading) all of the verses IN THAT ONE DAY’S READING that contradicted Calvinism. It was like a tidal wave of evidence (no cherry-picking Calvinist style).
So…. I would welcome people doing that!
Please post here or in another thread what you read TODAY and how that spoke to you both in a good way and in a Calvinist-error way.
Hi Reggie, thanks for commenting. You said: “So anyway I have read some of Randy Alcorn’s book, but to be fair and honest when i realized his soteriology view i stopped. Ugh not saying this is right or wrong, but again i find when I’m trusting God and His Word above man then the clarity & inconsistencies of calvinism are much more clear!’
Yeah, I too have a hard time reading anything from a Calvinist, even if it’s not related to soteriology, because Calvinism seeps into all their views on all biblical issues. So everything they say will be based on fundamentally wrong beliefs about God and faith and salvation. Not that we can’t get anything good from them, but I still can’t stomach even the good things they say because I know what’s hiding underneath.
God bless you, Reggie!
Reggie,
And you asked “I’m still trying to figure out did Paul consider this issue or soteriology etc. secondary???”
I don’t think Paul considered issues of salvation secondary at all.
1 Cor. 15:3-4: “For what I received I passed onto you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures,”.
This – the gospel, how we can be saved because Christ died for our sins – is of “first importance.”
1 Timothy 2:3-6: “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all men…”
This message is the very reason Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John recorded what they did.
John 20:31: “But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
The message of salvation offered to all people is of first importance. And so in my thinking, if we get that wrong, it doesn’t really matter what else we get right.
And Calvinists get it wrong.
FOH: “Please post here or in another thread what you read TODAY and how that spoke to you both in a good way and in a Calvinist-error way.”
Good idea. And I see what you mean now by “water down,” that it would make it harder to find the Calvinist-related comments, not necessarily that it would dilute the meaningfulness of the blog. Makes sense. And blessings to you. 🙂
br.d, Heather and Everyone Else
Hope we all had a Great Thanksgiving , sorry to go a little bit off topic but
You Know how we have the terms
B.C. for “Before Christ” and
A.D. which is Latin for Anno Domini
“In the year of the Lord” when Jesus Christ Returns in the
Second Coming, which I hope is No later than
the End of 2024 . When Jesus Returns and Ends All Evil, Suffering and
Injustice in the World once and for All, Forever
Will a New term be created similar to
B.C. & A.D. something like R.C. which would stand for
Return of Christ , because it would be the beginning of a New Era for All
Humanity , the Whole World , a major turning point for the Human Race
Do you think that in Heaven and the New Earth Christians will each have a Nice Large House
All to themselves with an Exact Duplicate Copy of All their Earthly Physical
Possessions, Do you Speculate TV shows, Movies, Books, Magazines, Video Games, Computers, Internet, Social Media,
Our Beloved Pets will Continue to Exist ? Sports, Music,
Also does the United States Government and other World
Governments take the “Rapture” Doctrine seriously. What Emergency Plans do they
Have in place for when Hundreds of Millions of Christians suddenly
vanish into thin air and are “beamed up” as they say in Star Trek
What plans are in place for those who are “Left Behind”
Have you ever heard of something called
Project Blue Beam ? Not to be confused with
Project Blue Book ? What is your opinion on UFO’S and so-called
“Alien Abductions” Are you a Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture Believer
Thanks for answering ,
Hello Jeff,
And thank you for your kind ThanksGiving greetings!
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On your other questions – one of the users here at SOT101 has asked if we would refrain from discussions outside of the topic of Calvinism – because he feels he is being inundated with posts coming into his incoming email.
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So I’ll leave it at that.
And a very warm and Happy ThanksGiving to you!!!!
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br.d :-]
Hello Jeff, I hope you had a great Thanksgiving too. Without elaborating, I will say that I am definitely a pre-trib believer (and I don’t think we’ll care about the possessions we left behind on earth because I think whatever we get will be so much better, much more perfect).
And to bring this comment into the realm of Calvinism, I will add that while Calvinists fall on both sides of the debate (pre-trib vs. post-trib), from what I can tell, Calvinists who believe in a post-trib rapture (as our Calvinist pastor does) might do so because it’s the only way they can explain “elect” people being on earth during the tribulation, as seen in Revelation. Because if all the Calvinist elect are supposed to go up in the rapture, then it can’t be a pre-trib rapture. And so to make the rapture and Revelation fit their view of election, they move the rapture to post-trib. I, however, think they mistime the rapture to accommodate their wrong views of election.
Along these lines is the idea of when the millennium kingdom is or if there even is one. I believe the rapture is first, then the tribulation, then the millennium kingdom. But, if I’m not mistaken, didn’t the EFCA just change their statement of faith to allow for amillennialism? I’m not sure why they did this, but I wonder if it has something to do with Calvinism taking over EFCA churches.
Blessings to you, Jeff! Have a great holiday season.