Original post by Ronnie W. Rogers
I agree with the Calvinist claim that the gospel is simple and clear, but I contend that Calvinism, by its very nature, complicates and obscures the simple and clear gospel.[1] Yes, someone can be saved when anyone says something like, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,” but the difference between what a Calvinist and Extensivist (non-Calvinist) mean when uttering those words is quite different.[2] Just the cache of extra-biblical concepts needed to characterize Calvinism as a biblical position is telling.
Their view requires concepts such as two wills (revealed and secret), two calls (external to all and internal to the elect only), two loves (salvifically speaking rather than different kinds such as love of a child or spouse), two levels of atonement (sufficient for the non-elect but efficient for the elect only), two parallel lines (to give an appearance of reconciling unconditional election, micro-determinism, and God’s salvific love for all with man’s freedom), two gospel offers (good faith offer which is not an actual offer as opposed to the Bible’s good offer of the gospel), compatibilism (but regularly speak libertarianly),[3] mystery (gloss of Calvinistically-generated contradictions), and using the distinction between man’s intellect and moral aspects to obfuscate the plight of the non-elect (i.e., the person cannot choose to believe).[4] In Calvinism, Scripture is not simple with depth but cryptic, with these concepts only accessible to Calvinism’s theological sophisticates.
For example, in Scripture, we see Jesus making good offers to repent and be saved (Matt 4:17; 11:20-21; Luke 5:32; 15:7; 24:47). Some Calvinists say Jesus was making a “good faith offer” (if there is such an idea) since, as a man, he did not know who the elect were. There is an insurmountable problem with imposing an unawareness of who the non-elect are upon Christ to sustain the idea that rather than presenting a good offer, he only presented a “good faith offer.”
Because Jesus said he always did the will of the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38; 17:4) and spoke not of his own initiative but what the Father wanted him to speak (John 3:11, 34; 5:19; 7:16; 8:26, 28, 38; 12:49-50; 14:10, 24, 31; 17:8). Furthermore, the Holy Spirit was upon Jesus and filling him without measure (Isa 61:1; Matt 12:18; Luke 3:22; 4:1, 14; John 3:34; Acts 10:38). Consequently, even if Jesus did not know, the Father and the Holy Spirit knew; therefore, the Calvinist doctrine of selective regeneration makes the Trinity complicitous in this unscrupulous misrepresentation. The obvious truth is that Jesus commanded them to repent because he was not willing that any would perish and desired that all would come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), something God has grace enabled everyone who hears the truth to be able to do.
Calvinist Kevin DeYoung asks, “Is God wise enough to make himself known? Is he good enough to make himself accessible? Is he gracious enough to communicate in ways that are understandable to the meek and lowly? Or does God give us commands we can’t understand and a self-revelation that reveals more questions than answers?”[5] My answer is yes; he is wise enough, good enough, and gracious enough, but I do not think Calvinists can consistently say yes in the same sense because Calvinism burdens God with withholding, for most, what is necessary to know him and make him accessible. And if Calvinism is true, God has surely not communicated in ways understandable to the meek, lowly, or the hoi polloi but only to the enlightened theological sophisticates.
The truth is, while God made Scripture to be exoteric (to be understood by the average person), Calvinism makes Scripture esoteric (truly understood by a chosen few). This is in spite of the fact that Calvinists still proclaim the perspicuity (clarity) of Scripture.[6]
[1] For example, Calvinist Kevin DeYoung states, “The saving message of Jesus Christ is plainly taught in the Scriptures and can be understood by all who have ears to hear it. We don’t need an official magisterium to tell us what the Bible means.” In his book Taking God at His Word (Wheaton: Crossway, 2014), 45.
[2] See my book Does God Love All or Some? Particularly chapters 20, 21, and 25.
[3] COMPATIBILISM: Determinism and moral responsibility are compatible, hence the name. This compatibility is not achieved by compatibilism being less deterministic than hard determinism. Rather, it is achieved by defining free choice to mean as long as a person chooses according to his greatest desire, he has made a free choice for which he is morally responsible; even though given the same past, he cannot choose differently in the moral moment of decision.
Consequently, the difference between compatibilism (soft determinism) and hard determinism is not to be found in the levels of the deterministic nature of each since they are the same. Rather, the difference is compatibilism simply contends people are morally responsible for their choices if they are made according to their greatest desire, and hard determinism says they are not. Therefore, moral responsibility is the product of defining free choice as a person acting in accordance with his greatest desire even though the desire is determined.
LIBERTARIAN: Man is not determined. He has the actual ability to choose between accessible options, at least in some scenarios. Libertarians contend determinism is not compatible with moral responsibility. Man possesses actual otherwise choice and can, therefore, act or refrain in the moral moment of decision, given the same past within a given range of options.
Extensivism argues God endowed man with this ability, which is an aspect of being created in the image of God. God determines the range of options. Adam’s range of options, the result of creative grace, was greater than mankind’s options after the fall. Fallen man can still choose between options, but the range of options is less than man had prior to the fall. This lessening includes losing the ability to make choices that are inherently righteous or spiritually restorative (making one right with God) based solely on creative grace. In order to make an inherently righteous choice or one that is spiritually restorative, God had to provision redemptive grace—grace enablements—which he did.
[4] Add to these Calvinism’s uniquely narrow definitions such as sovereignty being causal and only exercisable over determined or compatibly free beings, or the necessary adjectives in the TULIP.
[5] Kevin DeYoung, Taking God at His Word (Wheaton: Crossway, 2014), 69.
[6] DeYoung comments, “The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture is not a wild assertion that the meaning of every verse in the Bible will be patently obvious to everyone. Rather, the perspicuity of Scripture upholds the notion that ordinary people using ordinary means can accurately understand enough of what must be known, believed, and observed for them to be faithful Christians.” Kevin DeYoung, Taking God at His Word (Wheaton: Crossway, 2014), 59. I think the Calvinist system fails here as well.
Great article. “Just the cache of extra-biblical concepts needed to characterize Calvinism as a biblical position is telling”. And then the author goes on to do a great job of summarizing all of the “two’s” and “mysteries” of Calvinism, none of which are explicitly found in scripture. This is so true and this is a part of two of the four main reasons I rejected Calvinism as a false, unbiblical doctrine.
The only good thing (good for the gospel, bad for hiding what they really believe) is that I’ve noted for the most part when a Calvinist is giving an evangelistic sermon or call to come to Christ, they leave out all of this stuff and it usually sounds like the same invitation a non-Calvinist would give. They don’t bring all this stuff up typically until a person is saved (or has had a profession of faith).
The more serious problem comes in when someone really isn’t a believer but is in a Calvinist church sitting under this teaching (like many youth that are brought to church by their parents but not yet a believer) they get very confused and many times don’t hear the clear gospel and/or reject the gospel because of this confusion. I personally know many young people who unfortunately went through this very process.
I agree with you Andy. I was involved in a Calvinist church for over a decade before I heard Calvinism blatantly preached. Until that time, any non-Calvinist (of which I was one) could have listened to the weekly message and never know he was in a Calvinist church. Indeed, I was deceived into joining this church by the pastor’s claim that He would not preach Calvinism, but simply scripture, whatever it said. I took this to mean that he did not really, deep down, believe in Calvinism, but had merely been persuaded that its interpretations of certain prooftexts could not be overcome.
Of course, in the end, the truth is always revealed. When a pastor begins to preach on orphanage fires in which most children are needlessly left to perish, you know how he, and his religion, view God.
It is just as Ronnie so masterfully put it. Calvinism simply redefines important terms, without making this clear to the acolytes. It mostly remains the ‘secret’ of the ‘enlightened’. You won’t hear it taught to the children, the visitors, or even most members, until they are judged ‘hooked’ enough to begin to expose them, gradually, to the ugly truths of Calvinism.
And yes, I must sadly add that I have young adult children who suffered the very thing you describe. To this day, I am not sure they fully understand the gospel, or the true nature of God. While I would love to share it, and have tried from time to time, it is not something they are open to discussing, because reexamining Calvinism would threaten friendships (mostly from their churches) that they treasure. I understand. This was not easy for me either, as Calvinists well know. This is why they reel people in, get them deeply enmeshed into a community in which they find friendship and support, and only then, if at all, begin to expose tiny bits of what mostly remains in the dark.
Thanks TS00. Unfortunately our stories about how Calvinism confused the gospel and affected our adult children is a very common issue I hear quite often.
Yeah, they cannot hide for long
They simply can’t help themselves. John Calvin is their Hero and that hero worship cannot be contained.
Just look at how similar their tactics are compared to the liberal media and the atheists.
They infiltrate every avenue that allows them to spread their worldview. It is the fanaticism of ERROR. It’s like a disease and they all use the same playbook. I’m not saying they copy each others Plan(although it is a plan) I’m saying “Worldview Error” by its very definition is caused by Sin. Groups that spread Error use deceitful tactics to spread such error. It’s just the nature of falsehood – it ultimately corrupts you.
Next time you scan the internet, notice just how many websites are dominated by Calvinists. Error seeks to corrupt everyone.
The Truth uses no such tactics and by its nature will be muted, conservative, with nothing covert about it. That’s why it’s so utterly obvious where error lies and so clear what the Truth is.
Hello John and welcome
I am agreeing with you John and BRD, but I disagree that people always figure this out. I know a Presby brother that seems like he tries so hard to be “good” in a works-righteousness mindset. I don’t know whether or how to break the (Good) news to him.
Over the weekend I was thinking that this whole Calvin/Lutheran/non-FreeWillBaptist thing (are there others?) is a conspiracy and a cult, not unlike the JW’s, Mormons and Gnostics before them. It’s extremely human-centered and non-Spiritual. It’s a game of “Hide The Ball” (a deceitful negotiating tactic, where you build your document without direct mention of the “escape clause” that makes all other clauses null-and-void). Awesome deal for those in control of the church, enslaving for the laity.
For me, I still can’t get over how Augustine (and followers) re-defined faith and grace. That is not of God.
“And His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.” Isaiah 53:9 NASB
br.d
I understand your point and position on the subject Eric.
Quite frankly – it all appears to be a natural transition within human history – applied to Christian doctrine.
We have the logical system which evolved through Plato and then Aristotle which has become so powerful and preventive within human societies because it provides coherence which allows human thinking to avoid self-contradiction.
Along side that – we have the constant historical record of what is called “Syncretism” which is the mixing of different religious doctrines into each other.
Syncretism was a prevalent problem for the people of Israel.
They were constantly being warned about embracing false gods and commanded to tear down the high places.
They eventually disobeyed both and ended up in slavery because of it.
The people of God – in the N.T. era fell into the same weakness.
Catholicism is essentially a system of Syncretism.
Augustine becomes a power figure within the Catholic power system.
Augustine is an educated intellectual – who recognizes the power of logical thinking – but at the same time is seeking answer to internal questions.
Just prior to Augustine’s life-time – the religion of Gnosticism is blasting through many geographical areas.
Almost all pagan religions entail some form of DUALISM with a or twin-deities who appear good/evil form.
Manichaeism is a mixture of Christian doctrine and Zorastrian doctrine in which these twin “Good-Evil” deities are combined into one god (mono-theology) who incorporates the principles of both good and evil which in other pagan religions would attributed to twin-gods.
Augustine is heavily affected by Manichaeism because for him it promises to provide answers to the problem of evil.
Augustine is also heavily influenced by the doctrines of Plotinus – who has essentially taken doctrines of Plato and re-shaped them into a religious form.
So once again – we have Syncretism – with academia acknowledging that Augustine is one of the primary conduits through which Neo-Platonism (i.e. doctrines of Plotinus) are mixed into Christian theology.
Here is where Augustine adopts a strong emphasis on Determinism – from Greek intellectualism.
Calvin as a young man – is influenced by the early Reformers concerning issues its complaints against Catholicism.
He unfortunately looks to Augustine as his primary source in his search for a golden standard of Christianity.
Unfortunately he does not realize – through Augustine – he is drinking from the well of Syncretism.
Augustine attempted to reconcile a conflict between human accountability and exhaustive meticulous divine control.
Augustine knew he was was unsuccessful in establishing that reconciliation – so he strategically relied on equivocation within his language in order to present a facade of logical coherence.
Calvin simply followed in Augustine foot-steps – but with a higher emphasis on exhaustive meticulous divine control.
Calvin eventually relies on the same strategy that Augustine relied on – and Calvin becomes a double-speak artist.
Calvinism – is thus a system of double-mindedness – with a highly evolved language of double-speak
Blessings!
br.d
Br D
Thanks for the explanation. I guess I see Augustine even more harshly. He didn’t want to learn Greek, which most of the Early Church Fathers used (right?), and he didn’t receive formal Christian training (he was a rhetorician and polemisist tho). So he figgered Truth is relative, and logic is King (especially the kind that benefits himself).
His quote ‘Grace won through’ (I can’t remember it exactly) is telling to me, ie, I am going to pretend that God’s system is forcing me to write this down (though actually it’s just to defeat my rival Pelagius). He also told people to read his writings in order, which I think only Ken Wilson has ever done. Auggie basically said, if people aren’t smart enough to catch him, then they deserve what they get (a life of bondage to cynical churchmen). Hence, my rather negative view of determinists.
I would be very open to comments on my (somewhat fresh) understanding of all this. I have some ideas posted at wordlight.net/another_gospel.html and perhaps wordlight.net/occams_razor.html. My email is in the About page.
br.d
If you are interested in an analysis of Augustine from the perspective of Augustinian scholars – you might very well be interested in a small summary of that – available on Youtube – by Dr. Paul Maxwel. It is titled “Is “New Calvinism” a Theological Rip-Off?” I know Ken Wilson is also an Augustinian scholar – and your reference of him is well noted.
And what Paul Maxwell concludes lines up with what Ken Wilson concludes. You might find that youtube interesting.
Leighton’s Title “Calvinism Obscures the Simple Gospel” stimulated an old project I started some time ago on how to write a Calvinist Gospel presentation which incorporates the main tenets of reformed TULIP ideas…(with integrity of course). I developed some ideas and had a draft composed. However, while studying “Deconstructing Calvinism” by Hutson Smelley I found his version to be excellent and is quoted below. I have broken it into parts while memorizing it so hope you will appreciate it as much as I did.
How many time have you heard a Calvinist present the good news of the gospel in this manner from the pulpit?
Mike R
Springfield, VA
——————————————————————————————-
“We should not think of this exercise in refuting Calvinism as merely academic.
Calvinism strikes at the heart of the gospel message, and if there
is any place where the Christian should take a stand, it is on the gospel.
Simply put, Calvinism robs the gospel of its integrity.
Imagine trying to express the gospel with integrity if Calvinism
is true. It might sound something like this:
===================================================
Let me tell you that every person is born under sin.
You are a sinner separated from God,
you are completely dead in your sins,
and a dead person cannot do anything.
But there might be good news for you.
Before God created the universe He decreed everything that would ever happen
and He decreed to save some people, and if you are one of those He
picked, then I can tell you that Jesus, the very Son of God, died
on a cross to pay your sin penalty.
But then again, perhaps God did NOT select you for salvation
before He made the universe.
If that is the case then you are going to the lake of fire for
eternity no matter what. Of course, you are reprobate and you cannot understand what I am
telling you anyway. Is this making sense to you?
Well, so like I was saying, the Son of God may have died for your
sins. If he did, then you need to know he was buried and rose
again three days later and you can trust him and him alone for the
forgiveness of sins
whenever God decides to give you the trust.
But today might not be your day to be efficaciously called. If
God did pick you before He created the universe,
then at some point He will drag you to Jesus and only at that
moment will you even be able to understand what I am saying.
So if you are understanding this now, then God must have
regenerated you and made you spiritually alive already and so now
you must believe in Christ. But obviously, it cannot be this
simple. You cannot just trust Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.
Before you can be saved you need to commit to a life of complete
obedience to his commands.
You need to turn from your every sin in your life and purpose to
live right, and then Jesus can save you.
But remember, your works have nothing to do with you getting
saved. Just understand that you will never get into heaven without
works.
This is obviously exaggerated, but the reality is that at every
step of trying to present the gospel and give people context for
understanding their sin condition and need for Jesus Christ, the
TULIP imposes upon us to caveat each statement we would make.
For example, I cannot, with integrity, tell anyone that Jesus
loved them enough to die for them so that they might have eternal
life if they trust him.
I simply have no way of knowing if they are elect or not, and if
they are not elect, then obviously I would be a liar to suggest
that Christ died for them or that there is any good news for them.
Moreover, I cannot tell people that they simply need to trust
Christ. I have to try to explain the commitment they must make to
obey Christ’s commands, which they may know little or nothing of,
so that they can get saved.
And what if I become aware that they sinned within the hour of
professing Christ?
Perhaps their commitment was inadequate, so what do I do then?
— Deconstructing Calvinism by Hutson Smelley
Welcome Oilbrain – I’m not quite sure I understand what you are asking. Can you simplify it into one sentence?
Andy , what are the other 2 Reasons you rejected Calvinism ?
Andyb2015 you typed on January 31, 2022
““Just the cache of extra-biblical concepts needed to characterize Calvinism as a biblical position is telling”. And then the author goes on to do a great job of summarizing all of the “two’s” and “mysteries” of Calvinism, none of which are explicitly found in scripture. This is so true and this is a part of two of the four main reasons I rejected Calvinism as a false, unbiblical doctrine” Just curious what are the Other two or more reasons you rejected Calvinism , just curious ?
What do you think of the Way Calvinists Interpret the Bible ?
One of the many inaccurate and disingenuous things that calvinists state is that the non-elect go to hell because they reject the gospel. When the truth is that there is no gospel that is genuinely offered to the non-elect from God’s point of view. The Gospel is not intended for them and so it is not available to them to either accept or reject.
They also have the nerve to claim that they mourn over the millions who will ‘go to hell’ if their congregations do not assist the church in its calling to spread the gospel – usually to their ‘saved’ but non-Calvinist friends. They need the numbers and the dollars, and, let’s face it, no one gets ‘saved’ in a Calvinist church. Rarely is the gospel of salvation even preached by most Calvinists, as they struggle with their own personal cognitive dissonance over the Calvinist version of election. Besides, most of those in their churches are already saved; most just need to be ‘reformed’.
The joke that Calvinists let the Baptists bring ’em in, then they work ’em over, contains more than a grain of truth.
This is why I can not visit family members’ Calvinist churches. I would not be able to restrain myself from standing up and challenging the absurd and contradictory words of the Calvinist, seeking to appear biblical, while neglecting or blatantly negating his adopted theological system.
They also have the nerve to claim that they mourn over the millions who will ‘go to hell’ if their congregations do not assist the church in its calling to spread the gospel…
Yes, consider this from the inconsistent calvinist Spurgeon: “If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.” Or if he was genuine, then he was basically admitting that he loved the non-elect more than his god does.
Somebody should have reminded him that no amount of wrapping arms round knees, no amount of imploring them to stay, no amount of toothful exertions, no amount of warning and praying is going to save a single non-elect cosmic lottery loser. They are worthless firewood, human excrement in the calvinist god’s eyes. But of course he also unchangeably decreed them to make this show of virtue signalling also, to follow the example of his pantomime with Cain, or making a show of weeping over Jerusalem.
You go Loz!
Every time I read quotes like the Spurgeon one you used, I am struck with the fact he is imploring us all to: (1) love deeper than God does (2) work harder than God does, and (3) go against the “will of God” (who doesnt even want those people you are grasping at).
It is just plain nonsensical.
Agreed, and the common calvinist response of “we don’t know who the elect are” does not change this one bit, because:
1. It is still possible that we could clutching at the legs of someone who calvi-god purposely designed for the purpose of destruction, even if we don’t realise it
2. The integrity of the offer, the clutching, the imploring, the warning, the pleading, that in calvinism God has unchangeably ordained us to do, is non-existent from God’s point of view (the one that actually matters) because:
(a) He does not back that offer by any substance, i.e. intentional atonement
(b) He does not WANT them to heed the warning and accept the offer
(c) He has chosen to withhold the ABILITY from them to accept the offer
Pastor Loz
the common calvinist response of “we don’t know who the elect are”
br.d
Except when it comes to their own election status 😀
Good point Pastor Loz!
For me – this is another example of how the Calvinist holds his doctrine as TRUE – while treating it *AS-IF* it is FALSE.
In this case – the doctrine stipulates that the gift of salvation is never offered.
And thus the “Good News” associated with that gift is also not never offered.
Unless the Calvinist wants to argue that the gift of eternal damnation is “Good-News”.
The Calvinist doesn’t like the idea that people who are created for damnation are never really offered the gift of salvation and its “Good-News”
So they simply treat what they WANT to be the case *AS-IF* it is TRUE
It doesn’t matter if its not logically coherent.
When they WANT something to be TRUE – when it isn’t – WANTING it is all that matters them…
Otherwise Calvinism has another blemish – and they can’t have that.
There’s a lot more Psychology to Calvinist thinking than there is Theology
<<>>
It’s also the fact that they want to pretend (and try to fool others that they are seeking to proseletyze), that in calvinism, man is a responsible, accountable moral agent and so preserve the illusion of “justice” on calvi-god’s part. It appears more acceptable that people were offered the gospel / salvation and rejected it, and were therefore condemned to hell, than that they were never given a chance. The only consistent calvinists here are the “hypers” who deny the well-meant offer”.
Pastor Loz,
I have heard many times in many Calvinist settings, the speaker say to the crowd (something like) “God loves you; Christ died for you; Christ is calling you.”
Of course in Calvinism you cannot say that. They cannot tell everyone in a given room that Christ died for them!!! That is so clearly NOT Calvinistic! And yet …..and yet…… they do it.
Yes, I heard this many times in the Calvinist church I previously attended. Of course, I was happy they were giving a true gospel invitation. But what they said in the invitation was diametrically opposed to what they said they believed. There were times when the pastor gave a Calvinistic sermon, laying out or teaching on a fundamental of Calvinism, then would give this type of invitation at the end of it!
Yes, Calvinist D A Carson says the most common question he is asked by calvinists is whether he tells everyone God loves them, and he answers unequivocally, “of COURSE I do!”. Of course what he conveniently neglects to mention is that he is not necessarily referring to salvific love, but an “inferior brand” of general benevolence that allows the non-elect a few gulps of air and drops of water on their way to eternal conscious torment. Jerry Walls deals with this really well in his video series “What’s Wrong with Calvinism”. And of course Wesley rightly described this as the kind of “love” that makes your blood run cold.
Loz,
Some of my Calvinist friends ask if I love all women like I love my wife (thinking…wink, wink….I’ll show FOH the difference in the kinds of love….).
I tell them I do not love the women in my neighborhood like my wife, true, but I would not say I created them for eternal torment!
What a silly comparison….that like all comparisons backfires on them.
Good one FOH
What is also ironic about that – is if you ask a Calvinist if he would tie the hands of an 8 year old girl behind her back and lock her in a closet and if she doesn’t come out – you will throw her into a fire and watch her burn (Calvinism’s father model for the MANY) the Calvinist will reject using any human analogy concerning the things of god.
Obviously that rule only applies – when the conclusion compliments the sacred image! 😀
Yes, they have tried that anthropomorphic nonsense with me too. As if agape could ever be conceived to be remotely like the “love” the Calvinist god displays to those he designed specifically to be worthless cosmic firewood.
Roger
Their view requires concepts such as
1) two wills (revealed and secret)
2) two calls (external to all and internal to the elect only)
3) two loves (salvifically speaking rather than different kinds such as love of a child or spouse),
4) two levels of atonement (sufficient for the non-elect but efficient for the elect only),
5) two parallel lines (to give an appearance of reconciling unconditional election, micro-determinism, and God’s salvific love for all with man’s freedom),
6) two gospel offers (good faith offer which is not an actual offer as opposed to the Bible’s good offer of the gospel)
br.d
It has been noted here before – that Calvinism contains many conceptions which appear in the form of “GOOD-EVIL” pairs.
I believe this aspect of Calvinism – is best understood as a “GOOD-EVIL” DUALISM – which is a derivative of Gnosticism/NeoPlatonism – which Augustine never evolved out of.
Roger
Calvinist Kevin DeYoung asks,
“Is God wise enough to make himself known?
Is he good enough to make himself accessible?
Is he gracious enough to communicate in ways that are understandable to the meek and lowly?
br.d
All of which are not LOGICALLY CONGRUENT with Exhaustive Divine Determinism – because all of these are premised on the creature having a degree of mental AUTONOMY – and Libertarian Choice.
Both of which do not exist for the creature in Calvinism
To be clear:
Calvinists CANNOT say that a person goes to hell for “rejecting the Gospel.” The Gospel was never intended for them, or offered to them (other than perhaps an insincere, mocking offer). They make that very clear in Limited Atonement.
Ahhh, FOH, but they can say it! They shouldn’t say it, but they can say it! They have the ability to freely say things that are clearly dishonoring to the righteousness of God! 😉 They even say that God gives the gospel to those who are unable to respond so that God can judge them more harshly for their rejection. Direct proof that loyalty to man-made theology clearly causes cognitive dissonance and blasphemes God’s character!
Calvin said – “There is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.” (Institutes 3.24.8)
<<>>
If there are any calvinists who have been unchangeably ordained to continue interacting in this group, can one of them explain what constitutes a “severer condemnation” than eternal conscious torment?
According to Calvin, it’s not enough for Calvi-god to cause the non-elect to be born blind to the gospel, but he has to further harden their hearts.
But, apparently, it’s not enough for him to just make them blind and hardened, but then he has to trick some of them into thinking they are saved.
And it’s not enough to just trick them into thinking they are saved, but he has to make it feel so much like real faith that the deceived non-elect people can’t tell the difference between themselves and the elect (until they die).
Because apparently, it’s not enough for them to just spend eternity in hell, but Calvi-god wants them to be condemned more severely (whatever that means) for doing exactly what he predestined them to do.
And also, according to Calvin, if a mother does not have enough milk to feed her baby, it’s because God was pleased to cause her to be unable to feed her baby, while giving other mothers more than enough milk to feed theirs. And according to Calvin, if someone is out on a walk and takes a wrong turn and gets beat up by bad people, it’s because God caused them to take the wrong turn so that they would get beat up by bad people. And according to James White, of course, it’s not enough that child rape happens, but God has to be the one who planned it and caused it … or else it would be a purposeless, meaningless rape. Because, apparently, it’s better to have purposeful, meaningful rape that God causes than to have purposeless, meaningless rape that men choose to do on their own.
So it’s not enough that evil happens … but Calvi-god has to be the cause of it all. Or else he wouldn’t really be an all-powerful, in-control, sovereign God. And if he’s not all-controlling, to the point of causing all sin and evil, then we couldn’t really trust him, could we? But as long as we know that he’s the cause and controller of all sin and evil, then we can trust him, right? (And you better watch out, because if you disagree with Calvin, he might burn you at the stake with green wood that takes longer to burn.)
So let’s all humbly accept Calvi-god’s right to do whatever he wants – even causing sin and evil and rebellion against his commands and starving babies and physical assault and child rape – because “he is the potter and we are the clay.” So let’s just praise him for his mysterious ways and for doing all of this for his glory, even though it kinda makes him sound like a monster! But, hey, who are we, O men, to talk back to Calvi-god!?! If he thinks it’s good and glorifying to cause sin and rape and abuse, then who are we to question him? Even if it sounds an awful lot like Satan.
Another thing I have noticed that Calvinists do.
Let’s say someone like Kevin DeYoung (mentioned here) is very Calvinistic in his (written) theology. Then he says things (like he is quoted here in footnote 1).
Do you know what happens to me sometimes when I tell a friend that what he just said does not match his Calvinist stance? He will reply “Yes it does, cuz Paul says that.”
That means they can verbally say all the Arminian-sounding things they want….and then claim…”It’s consistent cuz Spurgeon says it.” “I’m still Calvinist cuz Paul says what I just said.”
Of course anyone acquainted with that tactic (even though they dont know they are using one) can see that they are just de facto assuming that Paul is a Calvinist. Then whatever provisionist stuff Paul says is Calvinistic too. It’s a win-win for them.
But that just assumes that Paul is the father of Calvinism and we would of course disagree. Crazy thing is they cannot even hear themselves doing it!
br.d
Arminian-sounding – and doctrine of decrees denying
And yet its Calvinism because its the TWO FACED way they need to interpret scripture..
Its called EXEGETING out of both sides of the mouth . 😀
Not only was the article lucid and helpful in spelling out the problem of calvinist doublespeak, but these comments have been equally as crisp and insightful. Great responses!
Hello Marlon and welcome
And thank you for your post.
Let me unpack my above comment a bit more here.
Kevin DeYoung states, “The saving message of Jesus Christ is plainly taught in the Scriptures and can be understood by all who have ears to hear it. We don’t need an official magisterium to tell us what the Bible means.”
That is the very position of the provisionists!
If this was stated by Roger Olson in an Arminian book many Calvinists would cry blasphemy! They would say, “of course it cannot be understood by a dead man! Of course it needs a special visit from God (to be made alive!) to understand. Your ears cannot hear anything —you’re dead— until God opens them and then irresistibly makes them hear!”
What’s a magisterium? The authority to teach religious doctrine. Naturally they invoke a word whose definition includes “doctrine”! And naturally they dont want the Catholic church to dispense this clearly taught grace ….. it is free to all, right?
Nah.
Not to all. Just a few that get the “magisterium” (however their doctrine defines it) to open up those dead ears and eyes.
Silly. Theologize like a Calvinist but preach like an Arminian.
“…. and can be understood by all who have ears to hear it….” Which only includes [wink, wink] those who have been given the ears to hear it. All others were never offered the option…. created specifically for destruction… for God’s good pleasure.
Yum.
The “story of twos” is another excuse blindfold when the main points of Calvinism are once again shown unscriptural, anti-scripture. 2 wills, 2 loves, 2 atonement’s, etc. etc… Suppose to base clarity through God’s word, 2 Tim. 3:16+17. You speak against Calvinist main points ‘reaction of true Calvinists will harshly state- “we don’t know, & how dare you try to know! No one can know God because so beyond us! Arrogance!” They remove God as revealer in relationship with us, to replace with revelation of man being the “true insight” above revelation of God through His Word. Proverbs 14:12, the ways of man lead where? Lead to death. Calvin is not Jesus & came out of an era of new Baby Christians trying to find their way back to God from being stuck in the orthodox cults. Calvin is not going to be right on all things & Calvin’s words are not the inspired word of God stated in 2 Tim. 3. The Bible holds answers for all of our questions. My life has been nothing but seeking answers to questions. I haven’t come across a question yet that I haven’t found an answer to in the Bible, & I have a PH.D. so my questions are quite tough! But don’t just take my word for it. Pro. 23:23, “Buy the truth & sell it not”… Test everything with your Bible open. If the “story of twos” is correct, that means we have a crooked god we cannot trust…one top reason why people leave the Calvin faith.
Exactly, Brother Mike! Determinists want us to believe that God spoke through His prophets and apostles in ways that actually mean the opposite of what they wrote down, but thankfully God raised up “scholars” to tell us really what God meant.
Dr. MIke
They remove God as revealer in relationship with us, to replace with revelation of MAN being the “true insight” above revelation of God through His Word.
br.d
Well said!!!
John Calvin can declare the bible teaches the moon is made out of green and yellow cheese puffs.
And if you disagree – your disagreement is illegitimate because the divine revelation is beyond human understanding.
You are to simply believe every word.
When you hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and given reverence to the divine revelation – which god gave to mankind – through Calvin’s INSTITUTES OF DOUBLE-SPEAK 😀
A point of contention or perhaps just needing clarification, Rogers writes when promoting Extensivism “losing the ability to make choices that are inherently righteous”. I’m wondering what “inherently righteous” means. When my unsaved neighbor (whom I have yet to find out who did it) shovels my driveway during my knee surgery, was that “inherently unrighteous”? When Jesus tells of the good Samaritan deeds and tells others to do likewise, were his deeds “inherently unrighteous”? When Jesus speaks of the evil giving good gifts to their children are these “inherently unrighteous” gifts. I realize our works cannot merit us God’s grace but I wonder if we go to far Calvinist speaking of inability of our unsaved friends to make choices “inherently righteous”. Or did I just misunderstand? Was it implied that these would be actions that make one righteous before God?
Hello Larry and welcome
You raise a good point!
Unfortunately – Roger – the author of the article is not here to interact and respond to queries.
I personally also have a similar question regarding the term “EXTENSIVIST”
In my years of experience with Calvinist/Non-Calvinist discussions – I have never seen this term used to describe anyone.
I will guess what is meant it is “Non-Determinist” – but that is only a guess.
Unfortunately, I don’t think either our questions will be able to be answered.
Blessings
br.d
In his book, “Does God Love All or Some?: Comparing Biblical Extensivism and Calvinism’s Exclusivism,” Rogers writes: “I call my position Extensivism, which…. encompasses all who believe God’s salvific love is for every person in contrast to Calvinism’s exclusivism, which limits God’s salvific love to only some.”
AH!
I get it!
God’s salvific love “Extends” to all – where in Calvinism it is “Exclusive” to the “Frozen Chosen” :-]
Thanks Maron!
Luke 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous in God’s eyes, careful to obey all of the Lord’s commandments and regulations.
Calvinist can do nothing with this verse. In theory these are “dead people” “doing evil all the time” right?
I am going to guess they would classify them as being regenerate. Don’t Calvinists hold to Old testament regeneration?
Welcome Larry. Yes, I think most traditional in reformed theology would say that.
And yet how strange that there is not a single mention of such a significant event as regeneration in the narrative of Abel, Enoch, Noah, or any other OT Saint prior to their belief in God.
Exactly, Bro Loz… nor any mention of an all encompassing divine decree before creation for everything to work out only one way… But many mentions of God making decisions and choices after creation, with some clearly made in response to man’s choices.
Fromoverhere: ” In theory these are “dead people” “doing evil all the time” right?’
Good point! Other “totally depraved, dead people” are Lydia and the believers in Acts 19. Here’s something I once wrote about them on my blog (I may have posted this in another Soteriology 101 comment section too, so I’m sorry if it’s redundant. And I’m sorry that it’s quite long.):
My Calvinist pastor loves to use Lydia, from Acts 16:14, as an example of God opening someone’s heart and causing them to believe. Calvinists love this verse and use it all the time because they think it “proves” their idea that God has to regenerate the elect before they can believe, all because it says “God opened her heart.” Calvinists will say, “See, it says God opened her heart to believe.”
But look at the text for yourself. It does NOT say that God opened her heart to believe. “To believe” is an assumption, added by Calvinists.
But what it does say is that she was already a worshipper of God. It says, “One of those listening was a woman named Lydia … who was a worshipper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.” That’s it. Notice that it does not say “to believe.” It does not say what the message was. It does not say that Paul’s message was the gospel’s message of salvation, as Calvinists assume it must be.
In a letter we sent to the elders, I pointed out that Lydia was already a believer, and so the pastor couldn’t use it to prove that God opened her heart to believe. She already believed before her heart was opened by God. But then when the pastor would preach on it after that, he would add something like “Yes, it says she was a worshipper of God, but she was not saved yet. She was not a true believer until God opened her heart.”
Where does it say this in the text? Nowhere. He didn’t even have a verse to back him up. He just proclaimed it like it was truth. But he’s adding something that isn’t there. It’s basing what the Bible says on their own idea that a “totally depraved” person can’t possibly seek God or believe in Him until God “opens their hearts,” so therefore Lydia couldn’t possibly be a true worshipper of God because God didn’t open her heart yet.
Even though the Bible itself said she was a “worshipper of God.”
So am I to assume then that God misspoke when He wrote the Bible. Do we need Calvinists to tell us what God really meant to say, as if God doesn’t say what He means or mean what He says?
And if they can’t weasel out of what the Bible says in any other way, they simply deny it altogether with “Oh, yeah, it says that, but it’s not what it seems.” My pastor also does this for God hardening Pharaoh’s heart too. The Bible says that for the first several plagues in Egypt Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and then God hardened his heart, making Pharaoh’s choice permanent. But our pastor said something like, “Yeah, the Bible says Pharaoh hardened his own heart … but God really did it first, even though it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart first.” And yet it’s sad how many in the congregation never notice or stop to really think about what he’s saying.
But do you know the best part of all this?
The pastor’s response itself (saying Lydia was not a believer yet) actually contradicts and defeats Calvinism, when you consider what Calvinists believe. Because if she was a God-worshipper but not a believer yet – if she was, as my pastor calls all unregenerated people, “totally depraved, desperately wicked, rebellious sinners who can’t do good or seek God” – then she was doing good things and worshipping God before she was regenerated, before God “opened her heart to believe.” She was still in her “depraved” state, yet she was worshipping God. The highest “good” we can do.
This totally destroys the T (total depravity/inability) in Calvinism’s TULIP, which says that men are so fallen, so wicked, so depraved that they cannot do, think, or want anything good, nor can they want or seek God, until and unless they were elected and God regenerates them first. But this unregenerated unbeliever was worshipping God all on her own, before God “opened her heart.” Not so “totally depraved” now, are we!?!
This tears down the T in TULIP, effectively proving that there is no Total Depravity … which means we are not so fallen that we can’t think about God unless He makes us do it … which means that we can think about and want and seek God on our own … which means regeneration isn’t necessary first … which means there are no elect people that God has to irresistibly call to Him and to regenerate … which means Jesus didn’t die just for the elect but He died for all people. This verse is a gift to anti-Calvinists because it effectively destroys Calvinism’s TULIP.
And on the flip side, if Calvinists admit that she really was a believer, then God didn’t open her heart to believe through Paul’s message. Because she believed before her heart was “opened.” And this means they can’t use this as a proof-text that God opens our hearts (of the elect only) to believe.
So then what was Paul’s message? What did God open her heart about? I believe it’s about the importance of believers getting baptized, because that’s the next thing she does.
And where in the Bible is there support for what I think? Well, just a few chapters over. What happened to Lydia is probably similar to what happened in Acts 19 when Paul met believers who did not yet have the Holy Spirit because they hadn’t been baptized in the name of the Lord but only in John the Baptist’s “baptism of repentance.” Paul convinced them to be baptized in the name of the Lord to receive the Holy Spirit.
Now pay attention here because this is important: Calvinists say we can’t believe until we get the Holy Spirit, until He regenerates the hearts of the elect to make them believe. This is what the T (Total Depravity) and the U (Unconditional Election) and the I (Irresistible Grace) of Calvinism’s TULIP is based on. This is essential for their theology – that man is so dead and totally depraved inside that we can’t possibly seek, want, or believe in Jesus unless and until the Holy Spirit draws the elect with irresistible grace, regenerating their hearts and causing them to believe. All of this has to happen before believing, for Calvinism to be true.
But the Bible itself says these men were believers, but they hadn’t yet received the Holy Spirit.
Now how did they do that? How did “totally depraved, unregenerated” people become believers before getting the Holy Spirit?
Do you know how?
Because Calvinism is wrong! We do not get the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe. The Holy Spirit does not regenerate us (well, the elect only) before we believe, in order to make it possible to believe. We get the Holy Spirit after we choose to believe, in response to our belief (as seen in multiple verses). He comes into the hearts of those who have chosen to believe in Jesus, and He regenerates our hearts to help us grow to understand God’s Word, to be obedient, to convict us of sin, and to grow to be more like Christ. (He convicts the world of its sins, too, and calls all men to believe, but most people ignore or reject it.)
In the face of so many Bible passages, Calvinism is wrong! But Calvinists would rather make up alternative meanings for Bible verses/words than to throw out their Calvinism and start reading the Bible the correct way. They read the Bible through the lens of “How does this fit with Calvinism?” And many of them have invested far too much of their life and energy and pride and reputation into being a Calvinist to turn back now. But I tell you, the deeper you study the Bible, the more wrong Calvinism gets. And the deeper you study Calvinism, the more wicked you realize it is.
Lydia (and these believing-before-receiving-the-Holy-Spirit disciples) destroys Calvinism! But Calvinists won’t – can’t – see it. Many of them are in too deep. And so they just keep using Lydia’s conversion over and over again, telling people it proves Calvinism, saying something like this (basing it all on their Calvinism), “Yeah, it says she worshipped God but she couldn’t be a believer yet because she didn’t have the Holy Spirit yet because God didn’t open her heart yet.”
And no one questions it because, after all, they claim they are only preaching “right from the Scriptures.”
FYI: Calvinists will come up with all sorts of rambling answers to try to cover for their theological nonsense. Don’t buy it! It’s hogwash! Debating a Calvinist is like trying to wrestle a greased pig. You’ll never be able to get a grip on them because they’re constantly shifting and squirming and doing anything they can to wriggle free. But if they have to try that hard to spin their nonsense into “truth,” it’s because it’s not truth. Always go back to the text to see what it really says. And the Bible’s message is easy to understand. So much easier than Calvinists make it. And it makes sense. So much more sense than Calvinism.
Heather – didn’t you know – Lydia was a worshiper of God who didn’t believe in the God she was worshiping?
Is that a conception of a human female brain – made after the IMAGE and LIKENESS of the Calvinist brain??? 😀
Br.d: “Heather – didn’t you know – Lydia was a worshiper of God who didn’t believe in the God she was worshiping?”
Yeah, an interesting Calvinist conundrum. And how do they sqaure that circle? Just like my pastor did “Yeah, the Bible says she was a worshipper of God, but she really wasn’t.” Yep, sounds biblical to me! 😉
And the congregation’s apparent reply: “Uh, okay, because you said so, I guess.” With no further inquiry or pushback. Except from me, of course. 🙂
Heather
And the congregation’s apparent reply: “Uh, okay, because you said so, I guess.” With no further inquiry or pushback.
br.d
This IMHO is one of the characteristics of Catholicism within Calvinism
Calvinist doctrine is given to mankind EX-CATHEDRA
It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t make any sense and is self-contradicting
You are to “believe every word” without question.- because the mysteries of god are inscrutable.
Thus they can declare the moon is made out of green and yellow cheese puffs – and you are to simply “believe every word” because Calvinism is endowed with divine revelation – and anyone who questions is operating in human reasoning.
Heather
Except from me, of course.
br.d
Its wonderful!
The Lord gave you a THINKING brain – which allowed you to escape the mental ensnarement.
I have notice many, many times that Calvinist will start to explain a passage with some sort of phrase like, “it says that but it doesnt really mean that.”
Now, I know we have to do that once in a while (We dont really hate our parents), but they do it hundreds of times….especially with all of the OT passage where God, “the Eternal of Israel” (making sure we know who is talking) says “I would have…” “I did not plan….” “it never entered my mind.”
Calvinist exegesis: “It says that, but we know it doesn’t mean that….. [add bloviation here].”
Br.d.: “You are to “believe every word” without question.-”
Yeah, Calvin and Catholicism are not too different in that regard. Sounds like how Calvin ruled Geneva. And the consequences for getting out of line were severe.
Yes!
I think this is one of the reasons N.T. Wight calls Calvin a Catholic with a small “c”
A number of years ago – I read a book on Calvin and Geneva – which indicated there remain letters from Calvin – addressed to Catholic head-hunters who were looking for Protestants – telling them the where-abouts of those who disagreed with Calvin institutes – asking the head hunters to kill them.
And that is also a Catholic thing to do.
This is why (one reason) I think the reformers are over-rated.
Luther has hero status for stepping out of line insisting on salvation by faith and faith alone….saying “Here I stand, I can do no other.”
But ….
1. No one was allowed to “step out of line” by them (No, they got it right and it’s the stocks or the river for you if you dont toe the new party line!).
2. Apparently the faith-alone that he is referring to is forced on you by God (and not offered to anyone else), so really a moot point when you think about it, right?
ps. I could go all day by adding ideas like the Catholic leaders were only doing what God predetermined they do anyway.
FOH says:
“No one was allowed to “step out of line” by them (No, they got it right and it’s the stocks or the river for you if you dont toe the new party line!).”
Huge red flag. Just one group of power hungry authoritarians setting up their own fiefdom. So unlike the One they claim to serve, the humble, self-sacrificing one who did not come to make himself King of the World (which he could have done with a word), but to suffer and die that all men might know the heart and will of God: to redeem mankind from the slavery of sin and death.
How long will men allow authoritarian Religion to replace walking with God?
Oh man oh man Heather!
I was gonna start writing about Lydia but decided to read yours first. Exactly!! You nailed it!
They refuse to deal with “worshipper of God” right in the same “proof-text” verse!
Either she was a believer (as a “worshipper of God”), or …
She was an unbeliever and a “worshipper of God” (so, not really “dead” and a God-hater, all the time evil).
Nah…. they cannot have it both ways!!
fromoverhere: “Oh man oh man Heather!… Exactly!! You nailed it!”
Thank you. I just wish I could’ve shared this with the people in my own church. Or I wish that they would stop and think for themselves when the pastor says things like “Yes, it says she was a worshipper of God, but she was not saved yet. She was not a true believer until God opened her heart,” when there is no verse that says that. But when someone holds pastors and theologians in such high regard, they turn off their red flag radar and don’t think to question what they’re being told. Sad.
Lydia was very likely a Jewish convert that worshipped the true God, like all Jews did, but she didn’t know Jesus, therefore, regardless of any good deeds she may have done (like believe in the living God), she remained in her sins and wasn’t saved… Just like Jews aren’t saved just because they also worship the one true God. To be saved one needs forgiveness for their sins, to be forgiven they need to know who Jesus is and what he did, knowing all that they need to repent and place their faith in him, they need to confess he is Lord. God prepared a servant to bring her that knowledge and opened her heart to receive it. And she did.
Hello Jana and welcome.
And “Well said” on your post.
Of course the Calvinist – because Calvinism is predicated on EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM has to find a way to make the story of Lydia fit into their system.
In Calvinism – humans are granted no autonomy – because any degree of autonomy given to a human – would represent a degree of divine sovereignty taken away from Calvin’s god. This is part of Calvinism’s “Zero-sum game” belief system – where any LIBERTY granted to a human would represent a LIBERTY taken away from Calvin’s god.
Blessings!
br.d
I not only agree with your assertion, I would posit that the same is true for most people who come to Christ. They are, for the most part, not people who have written ‘a Creator God who loves, pursues and saves’ off as a myth. They are not, for the most part, people who have dealt honestly with the concept of God and chosen to reject, deny or ignore it.
People who come to accept Jesus as the Son of God who demonstrates love, mercy and the promise of eternal life are most likely in similar circumstances as Lydia. They have not yet heard, and understood, the entire story, but neither have they closed off their hearts from the wooing of the Spirit in their lives. They are open to the truth they do not yet possess.
Jana, isn’t it such a wonderful, beautiful calvinistic mystery that this totally depraved, God-hating spiritual corpse called Lydia, was already a worshipper of God before God opened her heart! Isn’t it amazing how we are humble and spiritual enough to accept this mystery!
I’m with you PL, not sure what Jana is saying about this passage.
But When my Calvinist friends bring this passage up, I simply ask them was she “dead” (or was she at a place of prayer), and was she a God-hater (as Calvinist say all non-believers are), or was she a worshipper of God?
The passage is pretty non-Calvinistic!
Hello Jana!
You said “To be saved one needs forgiveness for their sins, to be forgiven they need to know who Jesus is and what he did, knowing all that they need to repent and place their faith in him, they need to confess he is Lord.” And you are right.
But then you said “God prepared a servant to bring her that knowledge and opened her heart to receive it.”
If I may ask, where in the passage does it say that the message her heart was “opened” to receive was the salvation gospel message? Is it possible that Paul’s message could have been about the need to be baptized, as happened a few chapters over in Acts 19? This little distinction would make a huge difference in how we read the Lydia passage, in whether or not it appears to be Calvinist or not.
Blessings to you!
I always thought it was odd that the key reformers hero and the person they got most of their ideas from was Augustine, the “Father of the Catholic Church.” Most Calvinists I know rail against the Catholic Church yet (probably unknowing for most of them) many ideas and theologies they still hold to even to this day came from the Catholic Church.
Yes! Good point andyb2015
There are some obvious aspects of historical Catholicism which Calvin – and his off-spring today dare both adamantly cling to – and for obvious reasons..
1) Historical Catholicism boldly pronounced itself as the “Golden Standard”
All competing theologies are aberrant in comparison..
John Calvin – and his off-spring today – assume that Catholic mantle for themselves.
2) Historical Catholicism – assumes itself to be endowed by divine revelation – to speak EX-CATHEDRA concerning all things pertaining to God and his design of creation.
John Calvin – and his off-spring today – assume that Catholic mantle for themselves.
3) Historical Catholicism – had its DIVINE INTERPRETATION of scripture – treated as CANON
John Calvin – and his off-spring today – assume that Catholic mantle for themselves.
In your dialogs with a Calvinist – when anyone disagrees with them – that one is AUTO-MAGICALLY disagreeing with scripture – rather than a HUMAN INTERPRETATION of scripture.
I have observed this for example in my dialogs with Calvinists on the subject of the Catholic HOLY INTERPRETERS of scripture – .condemning Galileo and Copernicus as heretical – because they contradicted the DIVINE INTERPRETATION of scripture.
Most Calvinists will come to the defense of the Catholic church on the Galileo/Copernicus affair – because Calvinism follows the Catholic model of CANONIZING its own interpretations of scripture – in order to posture itself as the “Golden Standard” – and pit everyone else as against scripture.
One of Calvinism’s “claim to fame” is that it is the “Golden Standard” of “biblical”.
And pretty much every Calvinist walks around speaking EX-CATHEDRA – AUTO-MAGICALLY assuming Calvinism as the pontifex maximus.
Thank you for the article once again you show clearly how convoluted calvinism is,! but the worst part is “if” you’re an unsuspecting believer it could put doubt and confusion about the goodness of God in your head unnecessarily.. But then you also have those who just want to sweep this under the rug or not talk about it.. & then others who just want this to go away and all get along, because they think speaking up is a divisional thing. Well really– if you get the doctrine of salvation wrong (HUGE) then hmm seems it’s only a matter of time before you get something else wrong as well! The Bible is clearly a message of hope from the beginning pages to the end. Calvinism is void of hope for the majority of humanity!! Then I’m told who am i to talk back to God ~well actually I’m His child and this isn’t what i believed about Him nor even considered it in reading Scripture.. so when i heard of this systematic by someone i trusted (human) i simply asked Him!!! This was introduced to me in an article written haha by a man!! So my comment is ~the confessions of men mean nothing~ in light of His Word and the good news of the gospel period.. though calvinist don’t see this they seem to exalt self, but they claim non-calvinist do it, yet we don’t need two wills to explain the Bible, but they do ie. man made theology.. It really came from a master manipulator who could change the meaning of terms easily under the radar in my opion. It is telling that many who hold this position don’t just come out and say it on the pulpit… So at first glance it doesn’t seem alarming, but the more you see the more alarming it actually is!! again this is my opinion.. And studying His Word is always about exalting Him and not making God out to be double willed etc.. such baggage at best, but if in the end they voluntarily hide the fact, that this makes God unjust and essentially a liar then i question does a person like that even know Him… maybe it’s not that simple but….. I found this site when i felt so very overwhelmed by the giant of this systematic… God is faithful and when i say we can trust what He says i don’t mean only a small minority that He salvafically loves i mean all even those who reject Him, because they get what they want in the end. There is comfort in knowing🌻
2 Thessalonians 2:10 NASB95 — and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
Well said, Reggie. Lots of insight in what you said.
Reggie: “…but the worst part is “if” you’re an unsuspecting believer it could put doubt and confusion about the goodness of God in your head unnecessarily.”
Heather: And sadly, it’s not just unbelievers who are damaged by this. A bunch of the Christian musicians who have recently recanted their faith came from Calvinist churches. I just read about one two days ago who just recanted Christianity, and in an article, he says his faith started unravelling when he (surprise, surprise! I knew it was coming.) began attending a certain reformed college. Well, no wonder! I can understand why someone would want to reject God and faith if they were taught that God causes all evils and predestines people to hell and only loves a few people and that most people were created specifically for hell for God’s glory and pleasure and that God says one thing but means another, etc. Sadly, these “believers” choose to walk away from God instead of Calvinism, not realizing that Calvinism is NOT the gospel. I hope and pray God keeps working on their hearts to draw them back to Him, to real truth.
Reggie: “… then others who just want this to go away and all get along, because they think speaking up is a divisional thing. Well really– if you get the doctrine of salvation wrong (HUGE) then hmm seems it’s only a matter of time before you get something else wrong as well!”
Heather: My husband and I struggled with the “division” thing, wondering how and when and if to speak up. That’s a hard one. We chose to not broadcast our concerns to the congregation (which I still feel bad about, not sure if we did the right thing, but I did leave comments on the church blog, disagreeing with the pastor’s view of predestination, and we did tell a few key people exactly why we were resigning from the church so that some others knew and could pass it on), but we sent letters to the elders since they are in charge of the direction the church goes, clearly spelling out what we disagree with and why. But of course, since they are all Calvinists, nothing happened. But at least our conscience is clean before God, knowing that we took a stand as best and politely as we could.
As much as we loved our church (it wasn’t always Calvinist), we just could not stay there, especially when we saw that disagreement is not allowed and that they would do nothing about our concerns. (In fact, the Calvinist pastor only got more vocal about it all after we sent our letter. Almost like “now that my cover’s blown, may as well shout it out loud.”) For us, the message of salvation, what Jesus did on the cross, is the very heart and soul of the gospel, of faith. And so if a Calvinist pastor gets the salvation message wrong (damaging God’s character and trustworthiness in the process), then it doesn’t matter what they get right. If they get the key point of the gospel wrong, then it’s all wrong. Too wrong to tolerate even their “good” points. And so we had to leave. I could not risk looking like we support/tolerate their twisted gospel.
Reggie: “… It really came from a master manipulator who could change the meaning of terms easily under the radar…”
Heather: Exactly! Makes it hard to pin them down or debate them when they can pivot or change definitions or disguise what they really mean anytime they want. It should be a major red flag to us all when a theology relies on deception.
Reggie: “It is telling that many who hold this position don’t just come out and say it on the pulpit.”
Heather: Exactly again! They need time to weave Calvinism in, unnoticed. To reel people in without their knowledge, oftentimes with manipulation. If they revealed right away that they were Calvinists teaching Calvinism, we could look up “Calvinism” for ourselves to evaluate it. But if we don’t know what their theology is – or that they even have a particular brand of theology – then we can’t look it up and are often unaware that we should look it up. We just think they are teaching “right from the Scriptures,” like they tell us they are.
My ex-pastor, although he’s a strong, dogmatic, in-love-with-MacArthur Calvinist, never used the word “Calvinist” or “Calvinism.” It took him years to begin revealing this openly. If I had known then what to look for, the signs of Calvinism, I could have seen it. But I didn’t know the signs and red flags, and so I didn’t know there was anything to be concerned about – until I began to notice the manipulative tactics he used to shame people into agreeing with him (as a licensed counselor, I notice this stuff) and that his interpretation of verses didn’t fit with what the Bibe plainly said. (When presenting their Calvinist views, Calvinists often use the term “the Bible TEACHES ….”, in opposition to what it actually SAYS.)
You both make excellent points about disagreement.
Without disagreement we don’t have “Iron sharpening Iron”
So we should be able to see the Calvinist prohibition of disagreement has a more hidden strategic purpose.
The REAL IRONY with that also is – their own doctrine stipulates – no Calvinist has any certainty of his election/salvation – because that is for Calvin’s god alone to know – and not for any man to know.
As such – the claim that disagreement over doctrine within a Calvinist church equates to disagreement among the saints serves as a DENIAL of the doctrine – which is itself a disagreement!
So their argument against disagreement over doctrine is a disagreement with their own doctrine!
I still think God gave Calvinism to mankind as a form of entertainment!
Entertainment of the DOUBLE-MINDED kind! 😀
Heather,
The points you all make on here and your willingness to speak up and God’s Word give me the courage to speak up as well in love well hopefully in love!! & i definitely agree with Br.d iron sharpens iron! If we didn’t warn/speak up where is the love in that!! Thank you for your wisdom in this matter it is greatly appreciated. I think we need to contend for the faith even within church walls. Faith is not a work, it is simply trusting in what was done for us! Such freedom and true power in the gospel! Which is clearly revealed in the Scriptures unless you have to add to it to fit some sort of agenda. Though we don’t fight against flesh and blood ugh sometimes… because tricky sounding men sure try to make it palatable or they shame people into silence. Again thank you all for sounding an alarm🌻
From the article: “I agree with the Calvinist claim that the gospel is simple and clear, but I contend that Calvinism, by its very nature, complicates and obscures the simple and clear gospel.”
Calvinism doesn’t just obscure the simple, clear gospel message, but I think it presents a whole different gospel, obscured just enough so that it APPEARS to be the biblical gospel.
In the Bible, God loves all. But in Calvinism, He loves just a few but APPEARS to “love” all through the idea of two different kinds of love.
In the Bible, Jesus died for all, God truly wants all to be saved, and God calls all people to believe in Jesus and offers salvation to all. But in Calvinism, salvation is only for a few preselected people, but it’s made to APPEAR to be for all people, through things like God’s “two wills” and “two calls,” etc.
In the Bible, man has the ability to choose between real options and is therefore truly responsible for his sins. But in Calvinism, man only has the ability to choose the one thing God predestined/causes him to choose and so God is truly responsible for man’s sins, but it’s made to APPEAR like man is responsible and has the ability to choose, through things like “two causes of sin” and “God’s two types of decrees: spoken vs. hidden,” etc.
In the Bible, we are saved through faith, by believing in Jesus, and then we get the Holy Spirit who indwells us and regenerates us. But in Calvinism, the elect are saved by getting the Holy Spirit first who regenerates them and injects “faith” into them and causes them to believe in Jesus. But it’s made to APPEAR like they are saved through faith, through belief in Jesus, when they are really saved first, BEFORE faith and belief.
Calvinism doesn’t just obscure the gospel but it completely changes it, presenting us with a different God (whose character is very different from the God of the Bible), a different Jesus (whose death accomplished something different than what the Bible says), and a different way to salvation, etc.
Wonderful post Heather!!!
I totally agree!
Calvinism is highly reliant upon hiding its TRUE face behind COSMETIC LANGUAGE.
It wants to call itself “Doctrines of Grace”
But in reality it is “Doctrines of GOOD-EVIL”
And as you so keenly point out – in order to make itself palatable – it has to APPEAR like something it isn’t
LANGUAGE is its tool-box – with which it paints SEMANTIC MASKS – behind which hide the EVIL parts.
Br.d.: “It wants to call itself “Doctrines of Grace””
Heather: Like John MacArthur’s “Grace to You.” Which should more honestly be called “Grace to Few.”
Br.d.: “LANGUAGE is its tool-box – with which it paints SEMANTIC MASKS – behind which hide the EVIL parts.”
Heather: Totally agreed! And we all know who it was, in the garden of Eden, that played games with God’s Words!
Heather:
Totally agreed! And we all know who it was, in the garden of Eden, that played games with God’s Words!
br.d
Bulls-eye!!!
Heather,
I absolutley appreciate how honest and direct you are; ~”Calvinism doesn’t just obscure the gospel but it completely changes it, presenting us with a different God (whose character is very different from the God of the Bible), a different Jesus (whose death accomplished something different than what the Bible says), and a different way to salvation,”~
Such a gospel of baggage being offered in doctrines of grace etc..! It is flat out bad news the complete opposite of what the message is/was and continues to be! The “good news”
Hebrews 4:2 NASB95 — For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Thank you, Reggie. I appreciate your comments and willingness to speak up too.
As you said, the gospel is supposed to be “good news,” but there is no gospel, no good news, for the Calvinist non-elect.
This makes me think of the angel’s proclamation when Jesus was born, in Luke 2:14: “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good-will toward men.” (That is the KJV.) Jesus’s entrance into the world was for the good-will of men. It was good news for all.
But it’s interesting because the ESV (a Calvinist Bible) says “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased.” Notice that it’s not good-will toward all men here, toward mankind in general, but it’s peace for those God is pleased with. Which, of course, in Calvinism, would be the elect only. The Calvinist ESV seems to make sure to limit the peace/good-will of God and the good news of Jesus’s birth to certain people, instead of being for all people.
[Side note: I looked up Hebrews 4:2 in the KJV and the ESV, and it’s interesting.
In the KJV, the last part of that verse reads “…but the word preached did not profit them. not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” This sounds like the people heard the Word but did not put any faith in it, and so therefore, the Word did not profit them. (Notice that the people “that heard it [the Word]” are the unbelievers who heard the Word but did not have faith in it.)
But the ESV says “… but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.” To me, this is very different.
In the KJV, faith is what we do. After hearing the Word, we either choose to have faith in it or not. But in the ESV (in Calvinism), faith is like a big, heavenly rubber-band that wraps around certain, pre-chosen people and unites them together as believers. (Notice in the ESV that “those who listened [to the Word]” are the believers – not the unbelievers, as in the KJV. And the unbelievers are not united with “those who listened” because God did not give them faith.)
In Calvinism, believers are not united THROUGH faith (because of our decision to believe) but BY faith (because Calvi-god injects certain people with “faith” that causes them to believe). In Calvinism, people don’t choose whether to have faith or not, but “faith” (determined/given by Calvi-god) chooses which people to tie together as believers.
Others might not see it the way I do, but I have found so many verses in the ESV that appear to be deliberately translated to be more Calvinist. Which is no surprise, considering that it was created by Calvinists.]
Perhaps it would be more accurate for them to call the ESV – the JCV
John Calvin version 😀
Brdmod: “Perhaps it would be more accurate for them to call the ESV – the JCV
John Calvin version”
It would be more honest at least, less able to deceive people. 🙂
Against secret will
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Also, if world means “the elect” how is this verse explained?
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Why would anyone think God would condemn the people He unchangeably determined to NOT condemn?
Bravo A2A,
You see that so much of The Bible is either redundant, unnecessary, unexplainable, or outright deceptive if you superimpose Calvinism
Heather,
Very interesting indeed!!! i often compare versions and I’ve stayed away from the ESV, because of how it was presented to me. I trusted He was Who He said He was in an NIV someone (not sure who) gave me years earlier.. i then bought a 1988 version and i still it, but i definitely see what you’re saying… Hmm and when you point out… at least i believe i heard it here the eternally sovereign version (maybe Brian said that) anyway it hit home, because of how it was presented to me.
Heather i also find you to be a very good Berean or rather like those from Berea… Acts 17:11 NKJV — These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
Because of what you said here;
“”[Side note: I looked up Hebrews 4:2 in the KJV and the ESV, and it’s interesting.””
I then decided to look it up on blue letter Bible app and here is what i found;
to mix together, commingle
to unite
caused the several parts to combine into an organic structure, which is the body
to unite one thing to another
Thank you for the heads up & again i agree with Br.d iron sharpens iron😊
Thank you for your kind words, Reggie. I’m learning as I go, and trying to share what I learn with others. 🙂
Thank you, Heather, for drawing my attention again to this important verse that I point to often to show that the gospel can be heard and not mixed with faith.
I hadn’t noticed this change in modern translations, which have drastically changed the meaning of the two participles, “mixed” and “heard” away from their subjects, “the word” and “those” not profited, and pointing those participles instead to “those” not profited as the subject of “mixed” and those who “heard” to those in Israel who did hear and believe.
The argument turns completely on how to take the last participle “heard”. The NASB even changed in its updated version.
1995 – because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
2020 – because they were not united with those who listened with faith.
The “word” is definitely the subject of “mixed” in grammatical form, so the change to “they” is pure extrapolation based on the last choice for “heard”. In other words, since the word wasn’t mixed with faith in some, that group then didn’t mix with the faith of those who did hear and believe.
The context however points clearly to those who “heard” as those who “rebelled” (3:16), not those who heard and believed.
These modern translations have ruined a very important teaching from this passage, and the main warning. If you hear His voice, don’t harden your heart (3:7-8). That warning does not fit Calvinistic teaching of irresistible grace. That is probably why they changed this translation.
Brian,
Exactly! Good point.
I noticed but didn’t elaborate on how this verse (the altered version) could be used to justify the Calvinist’s view that only the elect can really “hear” the gospel. In the corrupted translation, only those who believed the Word actually “heard/listened to” the Word. Whereas in the more accurate version (according to my assessment), the unbelievers heard the Word. They just chose to reject it. But since unbelievers “hearing” the Word would not fit with Calvinist theology, then no wonder “hearing/listening to” was attributed to the believers instead, in the newer versions.
Digging deeper Heather… there is a manuscript issue with the first participle, and the modern translations are now following the weight, though still uncertain, of taking “mixed” as accusative plural (they who did not mix) and not nominative singular (it was not mixed). The issue still remains how to take the last participle. And I still think the emphasis is on their not mixing with faith “with the things they heard” and not their not mixing with faith “with those who heard”, based on context.
Brain: “And I still think the emphasis is on their not mixing with faith “with the things they heard” and not their not mixing with faith “with those who heard”, based on context.”
This would make the most sense to me too. That the unbelievers didn’t mix the Word they heard with faith (they chose not to have faith in it), not that the unbelievers weren’t mixed with believers by faith (as if faith was only given to certain people, uniting them together, and the unbelievers were not given this faith). And if it’s accusative plural, then it sounds even more like the people themselves are responsible for not mixing the Word with faith (would that be right?). This would contradict the Calvinist view that people are not truly responsible for whether they have faith or not, but God is. That faith is something that just happens to them.
THE CALVINIST’S IMAGE – OF THE FATHER OF THE MANY
He is a father who blinds his little girl’s eyes
And ties her hands behind her back
And locks her in a closet.
Then he commands her to come out
If she does not obey his command and come out of the closet – he will throw her into a fire and watch her burn.
In Calvinism – every little girl who doesn’t obey the father’s command “deserves” to be thrown into a fire so that he can watch her burn
So the Calvinist naturally is going to see a verse that indicates a group of people who Calvin’s god did not mix faith with the word.
These are the little girls whom he blinded and tied their hands behind their backs and locked in the closet of evil
These are the MANY who are specifically created to “deserve” to be thrown into the fire so that he can watch them burn.
brdmod: “THE CALVINIST’S IMAGE – OF THE FATHER OF THE MANY…”
It’s sad but that’s exactly what the god of Calvinism is like.
As my Calvinist ex-pastor clearly said it one day (he’s usually much more veiled): “God loves people. He loves peoples. But the Bible is clear that He doesn’t love all people and He doesn’t love all people equally.”
How anyone could stay in that church after that (and also after he said God “ordains” all tragedies that happened in your life, including your childhood abuse) is beyond me. It made me sick, but it made others in the congregation shout out “Amen” and “Hallelujah,” as if believing that God “ordains” (they mean preplans/causes) childhood abuse and that God doesn’t love most people is a badge of honor and the best way to humbly honor God.
It’s sick.
And I wonder how any Calvinist can find comfort in a God like that or trust a God like that. They’d be horrified by any person causing abuse, but it’s okay for their god!?!
Sick, sick, sick.
Heather,
Ugh you guys are right! How can they see this in a God Who is clearly separate from such evil sin… especially in a child☹.. if I thought that He was a God Who ordained every childhood abuse and life tragedy simply for His glory I’d be ashamed of the gospel, because the only power would be, that He’d be fixing what He decreed to happen exactly one way… But since it’s the power of God to save there must be SO MUCH more going on here ie. real separate humans He created to decide is He enough or do we need to add baggage to Scripture to clarify how He interacts with His creation, because we are so intelligent… I would see no sacrifice in the cross nor in any human who can cheer on the calvinist version of God, because really that is a simple version that pins evil on the Creator… Yet thankfully!!! we see the profound Awe inspiring Savior of the Bible is not in the worldy wisdom of men..
Colossians 1:16 NASB95 — For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
I think Calvinists actually know internally that the doctrine is sick and perverted.
And that’s why they blame it on the Bible.
Well said, Reggie!
ESV: “Elected to Salvation Version”
br.d
Good one!
.
The interpretation specifically designed by and for the frozen chosen! 😀
Hey, guys! I have a new term for the Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration. It’s the Holy Spirit’s prewash cycle. They divide scriptures about baptism and washing into two different events. So they add a prewash cycle.
Hello toomanymarys and welcome
Humor is often good.
Personally I see the Calvinist doctrine of regeneration as the changing of a floppy-disk located in the forehead of the Calvinist. The only thing that changes is the programming which controls every impulse that will irresistibly come to pass within the Calvinists brain.
The Calvinist couldn’t have an impulse in his brain he could call his own prior to that.
And he can’t have an impulse in his brain he can call his own after that.
So even though the programming changes – the fact that every impulse that comes to pass within the Calvinist brain – is AUTHORED by an external mind – and every impulse is CAUSED by antecedent factors outside of his brains control – still remains the same. :-]
Heather wrote … “It’s sad but that’s exactly what the god of Calvinism is like.
As my Calvinist ex-pastor clearly said it one day (he’s usually much more veiled): “God loves people. He loves peoples. But the Bible is clear that He doesn’t love all people and He doesn’t love all people equally.””
These are the exact words I heard from my Calvinist ex-pastor. He would then go on to say that he finds, and we all should also find, “great comfort” in this.
“And I wonder how any Calvinist can find comfort in a God like that or trust a God like that.” We (my wife and I) wondered the same thing as we heard him say this. In what way does this give us comfort? Only if you are completely selfish and only thinking about yourself would this give you any kind of comfort as in “well I’m one of the one He loves in the “special, salvific” way, so I’m comforted. But too bad for all those other people, maybe my kids, other family members, friends, that He doesn’t love in that “special, salvific” way, they are going to hell with no real, true choice about it but oh well, I’m good. The only way this would comfort someone is if they don’t really care or love those others. If we really care and love others as or more than ourselves (as scripture clearly teaches us to), then this isn’t a comfort but a horrible, sick, thought that should torment us day and night.
I 100% agree. I get in a fair bit of trouble for saying that Calvinism is a “narcissist’s charter”, but that is exactly what it is. Even if it doesn’t start out that way for some, it will slowly become that way. Because we become like the one we worship, and Calvinists worship a narcissistic god.
It’s highly ironic when Calvinists accuse us of having a “man-centred theology”, because Calvinism is as man-centred as it gets. It’s elect-man-centred, electocentric, not Christo-centric. It’s an “I’m alright Jack” philosophy, hiding behind the fake humility of, “I’m so HUMBLED that God chose a wretch like me!”
And the sickeningly pious statement, “It’s amazing that God saves ANY”. Very convenient to say that when you just so happen to think you are one of the “any”. And why is it amazing that God, who IS LOVE, should choose to save any, or to die for ALL and desire the salvation of all and enable all to receive both the gift? It’s amazing in the sense of wonderful, but not in the sense of “surprising”, which is how Calvinists use it.
The more I debate with Calvinists, the more convinced I am that many of them actually find it OFFENSIVE that God loves all with a salvific love, as if their sense of self-worth is dependent on the belief that they are part of an exclusive special boys and girls club.
Truly, Calvinism is as demonic as it gets. I think Satan must be very proud of how he has managed to infect a sizeable minority of the church with this spiritual virus
Andy: “The only way this would comfort someone is if they don’t really care or love those others. If we really care and love others as or more than ourselves (as scripture clearly teaches us to), then this isn’t a comfort but a horrible, sick, thought that should torment us day and night.”
Heather: So true! Either they don’t truly love others, which is heartbreaking … or, if they do truly love the “non-elect,” then they love others more than God does. Neither is good. Or scriptural.
Pastor Loz: “It’s highly ironic when Calvinists accuse us of having a “man-centred theology”, because Calvinism is as man-centred as it gets.”
Heather: We had a baptism service at our church one day, and there were lots of beautiful testimonies, such as one old guy who was so humble and had learned such wonderful godly lessons over the years that it brought tears to my eyes. But then the nephew of our Calvinist pastor got up there and gave his testimony, and he went on and on about how “God chose ME! What an honor that God made ME saved. He chose ME before time began. Blah, blah, blah.” It brought the whole beautiful ceremony to a screeching halt. We could tell just how well-trained in Calvinism that family was.
Totally reminds me of the “Jesus died for ME, ME, ME” video that Br.d. (I believe) linked to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMmNf7PN0bc
It’s brilliant! And listen to how offended he is at the idea that God would have a general love for everyone and that Jesus would die for everyone. It’s like, to Calvinists, God’s love only means something if it’s reserved for a few specific people, including, of course, “ME.”
Just throwing this out there (I might have said it before, can’t remember): I recently read an article that the Calvinist in the “Me Me Me” video (in the link above) – Tyler Vela – just renounced his faith in Christ. I wonder what happened to that wonderful, saving, “specific” love that Calvi-god had for him. He must’ve gotten evanescent grace instead. Sad.
Heather, my view of Tyler V. is that he is a good example of someone who can be very knowledgeable of Scripture and Christian history and theology, but with no firm assurance of Christ living within by the Holy Spirit. There can be a false assurance of self-produced feelings like – “My theology is correct and in agreement with so many smart men who claimed to be Christian that I must be a Christian too”, or “When I knew I needed to escape the terrible life I was living, and was told to follow Jesus to find that escape, I had a special feeling when I was baptized in His name, so I thought I was a Christian for sure.” But Tyler came to believe that God was not working in His life as he thought God should be, and after experiencing a life trauma, he gave up believing that the Christian God exists at all. This made his former doubts now confirmed by experience, in his thinking. Very sad.
br.d
Here is another example of the strategically misleading nature of Calvinist language.
The word “Evanescent” is typically defined as “Vanishing or likely to vanish like vapor”
.
The phrase “Evanescent Grace” is thus designed to create an *APPEARANCE* of a some kind of “Grace”.
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But the TRUTH is – in Calvinism – we have a divine potter of Romans 9 – who creates believers specifically to be CHAFF – designs them in all respects to be PERCEIVED and to PERCEIVE themselves as elect.
But they were created for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
.
So here we have Calvinists using the word “Grace” to define the process of creating believers for eternal torment in a lake of fire in order to service Calvin’s god’s good pleasure.
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If Calvinists were to SPEAK THE TRUTH they would acknowledge – the divine deception of the believer – is an integral part of the doctrine.
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John Calvin gives the details:
-quote
The Lord….instills into their minds such a SENSE……as can be felt WITHOUT the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11)
.
John Calvin
-quote
he ILLUMINES ONLY FOR A TIME to partake of it. Then he…..strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8)
.
John Calvin
-quote
Before men are born their LOT is ASSIGNED to each of them by the secret will of god. (Calvin’s Bible Commentaries, 262–263)
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This is why – no Calvinist has any CERTAINTY of election or salvation.
All Calvinists how have been created at the foundation of the world – to be CHAFF – are given a FALSE SENSE of assurance – by divine decree which is infallible – and therefore impossible to be humanly discerned.
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Calvinists constantly try to MAKE-BELIEVE the individual himself was given a CHOICE in the matter – and the individual somehow defaulted on the salvation that was granted to him.
.
But that is a total denial of Calvinism’s doctrine of election.
Personally – I don’t know of any belief system that speaks out of two sides of the mouth as this one does!!!
Brain: “But Tyler came to believe that God was not working in His life as he thought God should be, and after experiencing a life trauma, he gave up believing that the Christian God exists at all. This made his former doubts now confirmed by experience, in his thinking. Very sad.”
That is really sad. And I can totally understand the desire to want to wash my hands of faith, of God, when everything falls apart, when God doesn’t do what we think He “should” do. “Shoulds” are dangerous things. We blame God for failing us when it’s really our expectations of Him and of faith that failed us, because they were out of line to begin with.
After I learned about what my mother did (what she was later arrested for), it was almost the straw that broke the camel’s back. The anxiety and stress and heartbreak was so strong, so overwhelming, that I wanted to give up my faith (and I wouldn’t have minded giving up on living too). It was like “You’re not coming through for me, God. It would be so much easier and less heartache to not have to rely on You or wait for You, to rely only on myself.” It was one thing to feel that life and my mother had let me down, but it was another to feel like God was letting me down too. It was almost too much. (It was only by His grace that I made it through those first several months/years. I’m still not over it, but I’m still here and it’s gotten easier, so that’s good.)
I wanted to be done with it all. I wanted to bail on God before He hurt me more. Do you know what I mean? It’s like people who sabotage relationships to protect themselves from pain – quit before you get hurt. But all I kept coming back to was “To whom shall I go, Lord? You alone have the words of eternal life.” (One of my favorite lines in the Bible, along with my favorite prayer “I believe, Lord, but help my unbelief.”) I’ve spent years clinging to faith in spite of my expectations and circumstances falling apart. And I know it’s not easy to do, so my heart goes out to Tyler.
Thankfully, for me, before my severe traumas, I had already learned how much I could trust that God is real and that the Bible is trustworthy in spite of my feelings and doubts – through things like years of research and some very clear answers to prayer and some supernatural experiences (levitating someone through “light as a feather, stiff as a board” – it’s demonic, don’t do it, but I was young and stupid – and a season of clearly demonic harassment like feeling electricity engulf my body when I was waking up and once even fully awake, and feeling an invisible force choking me when waking up, and feeling an invisible presence walking up my bed towards me several times while I was wide awake, etc.) I’ve had enough experiences with the supernatural world to know for sure that there is a spiritual world out there, that there are angels and demons, that God is real. And if God (and His Word) is truly real, good, and trustworthy, like I believe He is, then I choose to cling to Him in spite of my shattered expectations and broken heart. This world is not all there is, and the best is yet to come. Till then, I cling to Him through the good and the bad. To whom else would I go?
Sorry, I’m rambling, but my heart breaks for hurting, broken people, and it opens up my wounds all over again. If I could spare anyone from the kind of deep pain I’ve been through, I would. I wish no one ever had to feel pain, despair, and hopelessness that deeply. I’m really sorry for Tyler. (There’s tears in my eyes as I write this.)
The sad thing is that Calvinism erodes people’s faith in God as a good, trustworthy, faithful, loving God. They have been brainwashed into seeing Him as someone who causes and is glorified by sin and evil as much as by good, someone who could just as easily damn people to eternal torment as save them, someone who randomly picks a few to save but prevents the rest from being saved because He created them to hate and to punish (for doing what He ordained/caused) for His glory and pleasure. If that’s the kind of God He really is, one who causes and is glorified by sin and evil, then why in the world would we turn to Him for help and comfort when sins and evils hurt us? Why would we seek refuge in a God like that? It’s sad.
I’m sorry for Tyler having to go through those kinds of feelings. That’s a really difficult, heartbreaking struggle. May he eventually realize that it’s not God who let him down, but it’s the Calvinism that did.
Thanks for sharing your insight, Brian. God bless.
Thank you, Heather for sharing those insights from lessons learned in your life! Tyler failed the testing your passed. It is truly all about trust in spite of circumstances and feelings, but based on the truth of God’s Word and the real relationship experiences you know He has provided you of His presence before, when it seems His presence is hidden (though it’s not) during times of testing.
And your tears for Tyler remind us all of the grief that we should have for false teachers, even while we clearly express hatred for their false teachings. Jesus had such grief and so did Paul. (Mark 3:5, Matt 23:37, Phil 3:18). This is easy to see in that first reference, but can also be figured out in the second two, as one asks who are the children of Jerusalem (vs 31) and deciding why Paul is weeping while writing (vs 19).
And your choice verses for holding on in faith in difficult times are great choices!
Oops. I meant “Brian” not Brain. I bet you get that a lot though cuz spell-check doesn’t pick up on it. 🙂
Actually he gets called Brain a lot cuz it fits.
Fromoverhere: “Actually he gets called Brain a lot cuz it fits.”
Ha ha, I can see that! It does fit. 🙂
Thank you, Brian. God bless!
Thanks Pastor Loz. Some tough words but unfortunately they are true. “Spiritual virus” is really a fitting description. Like any virus, it grows and distorts and does much harm to its host.
One of the reasons I started questioning Calvinism when I was confronted with it head on was that it was beginning to distort my view of who God is. Did God really create most people with the knowledge that they would be unable to respond to His invitations of salvation so that He could then condemn them to Hell? Why would He only save a relatively few when He could regenerate every person? How did He choose some but not most? Why would He do these things? Well He made these decisions “in the secret councils of His will” and He did it “for His glory” would always be the answer I got from the Calvinist pastor or elders (who got it from Calvin). I questioned whether this was really who God was could see my view of God beginning to be distorted, which led me to delve deep into these questions.
Thank God for Soteriology 101 and many other resources I was able to find that brought me back to the true, Biblical view of who God really is.
Andy: “Well He made these decisions “in the secret councils of His will” and He did it “for His glory” would always be the answer I got from the Calvinist pastor or elders …”
If God was really glorified by sin (not just in spite of sin, but BY sin), by evil, by child abuse, by lies, by murder, by idol worship, by people being in hell … if He preplanned all these evil things and caused people to do it, for His pleasure and glory … then we’d really have to wonder how sick and twisted He is, if He’s any different from Satan, and if He’s worthy of praise. But instead, Calvinists trick themselves into thinking that they are being most humble and most God-glorifying to praise Him for this kind of stuff. (Actually, they let Satan trick them into it.)
Personally, I think Calvinism is so destructive because the lies are so subtle at first that people can’t hear how wrong it is. Glad to hear, Andy, that you could think for yourself and see past the Calvinist manipulations and deceptions. 🙂
Heather, “Personally, I think Calvinism is so destructive because the lies are so subtle at first that people can’t hear how wrong it is.
Exactly!!! So love the fact, that those on here see through this subtle deception!! What really gets me upset is sitting under a pastor who is not being intellectually honest with either the church or himself, that he’s teaching from a calvinistic vantage point.. I’m cautious because they really don’t all have it in their beliefs. I do agree though they may not say it, but they seem to think they’ve got something on the rest of us (supposedly emotional) people.. I don’t see it like that i see it that God gave me a new heart and i literally care and want people to be saved and ugh i don’t have agape love like God!! I actually know that without Jesus people are going to hell!! I trust God at His Word period… and there is no comfort in equal ultimacy and anyone who finds comfort in that has to be selfish/self centered or something…
Very good, Heather!!! Like Leighton Flowers often says — perhaps the best way to defeat Calvinism is to explain their own system in simple, understandable terms for all to see. To clearly see it for what it is …. by seeing through all its contradicting doublespeak, and to plainly see it in its ungarnished and unprotected form (unaided by use of their softening euphemisms) — to see it’s ugly underbelly is to simply reject it in total.
Thank you, Marlon. It’s just too bad Calvinists can’t recognize what they say as the contradictory doublespeak it is. They just parrot back some new talking point or out-of-context verse, convinced it solves the problem or wins the debate.
Yeah….well with guys like John MacArthur it doesnt work. He just says “They are both true. Just live with it.”
Some things actually are “both true” ….and we do live with it: God is three in one. Jesus is man and God. We dont get it…but that is the nature/person of God and it is not completely “getable”.
Other things are “both true” cuz we (they) box ourselves in by man-mde interpretation of verses: Proverbs 21:1 (A “proverb” no less) says….
“The king’s heart is like a stream of water directed by the LORD; he guides it wherever he pleases” …..so we (they!) extrapolate from that that God makes every decision before time exactly what every person will do.
Then we (they) encounter the hundreds of verses like “decide for yourselves” or “they did not follow the Lord” or “The Lord says ‘The thought did not even enter my mind.'” And they say …”Yes, man chooses! They are both true!”
That’s just dumb.
It is just dumb and bad exegesis and theology to tell the world that God hates all sin, rape, murder, child abuse, and at the same time insist that a Holy God immutably decided —before the foundations of the world — every action, thought and dust particle that will ever be.
“He ordained it all (even sin)!!” they say, “And yet He is without sin.”
When you cry “that’s nonsensical” they just simply pull out their ” The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God…”
Their interpretations, are, of course, the things of the Spirit.
You try to tell them what their theology teach and they say “you are setting up strawmen.”
And ’round and ’round…..
Fromoverhere: “Other things are “both true” cuz we (they) box ourselves in by man-made interpretation …”
Exactly! Calvinists first create a contradiction that isn’t really in Scripture and then they present themselves as so “humble” and “God-glorifying” to accept it without really understanding it, as if it’s a true mystery that God expects us to accept even if we can’t fully understand it, such as the Trinity.
I’ve given this example before, but my Calvinist pastor would ask the church “How can God ‘ordain’ all evil but hold us accountable for it?” And then he’d respond: “I don’t know, but the Bible teaches both God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. It teaches both these truths with no tension. It’s only WE who have trouble accepting it and understanding it. But God has no problem with it. And so I accept them both as true, even though I can’t understand it all.” And he says this like “Look how humble I am to accept hard teachings I don’t fully understand.”
However, the congregation is unaware of the Calvinist definition of “sovereignty” and “ordains” and “man’s responsibility”, and so they can’t see exactly what he is saying. And notice how he sets it up as biblical “truth,” therefore anyone who disagrees with him would be disagreeing with the Bible (according to him). They shame and manipulate people into Calvinism, into not questioning it.
I’ve also noticed several other ways Calvinists try to manipulate people into accepting their contradictions, such as:
1. They blame you for your “emotional reaction” to Calvinism with things like “Yeah, we know it’s hard to accept” and “It’s natural to have an emotional reaction to this stuff” and “I felt that way too when I first learned this” and “Give it time; you’ll get there.” They make it seem like the problem is with YOU, your emotions, not with their bad theology. And so if you don’t accept it, it’s just because you don’t like it and your emotions are getting in the way.
2. Changing the question. They pose the question “How could God predestined most people to hell” but then they say “Actually, the real question is ‘Why did God choose to love any of us when we all deserved hell?’ The fact that He loved and choose any of us when we didn’t deserve it shows how good He is.” You can’t ask the hard questions in Calvinism. They change it to one that doesn’t reveal the terrible nature of Calvi-god.
3. Bait-and-Switch. This is when they present a truth and get you to agree to the truth … and then they attach that truth to their viewpoint, making you feel like since you now agreed with the truth, you have to also agree with their view. I noticed this with a well-known Calvinist who said something like “Our great Holy Father in heaven – the Creator of all – expects us to evangelize, right? And we are supposed to be obedient, even when we don’t understand, right? Therefore, we need to be obedient when it comes to evangelism, even if we don’t understand how evangelism affects things since God has already predestined people’s destinies. But since God told us to evangelize, we need to do it without reservation.” He presents some truths that no one should disagree with: God is our Holy, Heavenly Father, He created all, He commands us to evangelize, and we need to be obedient to Him. And once he gets you to feel appropriately humbled before God and to agree with these truths, then he slips “predestination” in there, adding it to the list of clear biblical truths you can’t argue with, making you feel like you can’t argue with “predestination” either.
4. Bad comparisons. To support their idea that God causes sin, they’ll bring up verses about God causing things like natural disasters, “proving” that God also causes sin. But for God to cause a natural disaster is nowhere near the same thing as Him causing people to do something He commanded them not to do. He can cause a hailstorm and not be guilty of sin, but He cannot cause sin without being guilty of sin. Or they bring up verses about God using mankind’s sin for His plans (such as using Assyria to punish Israel or using wicked men to crucify Jesus) to “prove” that God CAUSED them to be wicked and to make the choices they did. They believe that since God predestined Jesus’s death, it must also mean He predestined that the people would be wicked and then He caused them to make the wicked choices they made. But this would make God the author, instigator, and ultimate cause of evil. But biblically, God can foreknow who will choose to be wicked and He can work it into His plans without causing them to be wicked, and this is how He can accomplish His plans without being the cause of evil.
5. They refer to something like the Westminster Confession, as though it wins the argument. A Calvinist in a recent post was trying to explain the Calvinist contradiction that God ordains all things (even sin) but is not responsible for the sin, and he quoted the Westminster Confession as if it proved his point: “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin…” But this is just repeating the contradiction to try to prove the contradiction. It’s nonsense. And it’s just essentially saying “Even though we believe God ordains (preplans/causes) all sin, we don’t really SAY He causes sin.” The thing is, they do say it in so many words; they just don’t admit it. And they trick themselves into thinking they aren’t saying/teaching it as long as they don’t use the words: “God causes sin.” But it is in the very essence of their theology, for anyone with the brains to see it.
6. Many of their tactics – and their responses to any doubts or challenges you have against them – involve the idea of shaming you into falling in line: “Humble Christians accept this view.” … “God is God; He can do whatever He wants. Who are you to question Him?” … “His glory is all that matters. He does everything for His glory, so if He predestines people to hell then it’s for His glory. Are you saying God doesn’t have the right to do whatever He wants for His glory!?!” … “You rob God of His glory if you say He doesn’t control and cause everything!” … “Who’s in control: you or Him?” … “You don’t have to understand it or like it; you just have to accept it.” … “God is so mysterious and can’t be fully understood by us. He has hidden certain things from us. So why are you trying to figure out something He doesn’t want us to know? Who are you to demand answers from God?” … “God loves Himself more than anything else, even people, and He worships Himself above all. He has to, or else He’d be an idolater. And so He can do what’s best for His glory, even if it’s ordaining people to hell.”
Basically, it always comes back to “Just be a good little Calvinist and accept what I tell you. Don’t disagree, and don’t research it or think too deeply about it.” (Can you say “cult”!)
Like fromoverhere says: “And ’round and ’round…..”
Heather
Calvinists first create a contradiction that isn’t really in Scripture and then they present themselves as so “humble” and “God-glorifying” to accept it…..
br.d
The Bible clearly teaches – the moon is made out of green and yellow cheese puffs.
If you disagree with me – then your disagreeing with scripture – and the inscrutable mysteries of god.
P. T. Barnum could have said: A Snake-Oil salesman is born every minute! 😀
Oh man Heather, it is great to see you come along and pick up some communication here!
They constantly say that the bible teaches both these things without tension…..but they dont teach it themselves.
In all my years attending a Calvinist, Reformed church (we are missionaries sent out from one) I have never, ever heard a message on God ordaining and being glorified by evil. What’s more….. we should hear that kind of message all the time if it is so equal in truth and value to the “Doctrines of Grace.”
(On our mission field) We watch some local pastors convert to Calvinism. They preach like Arminians (cuz that’s what they were for 35 years!) (before they, in their own words, “discovered” Calvinism—-where was it hiding?), but never, ever preach that God is in fact glorified by the rejection of Christ and even departing from Christ by some of their own kids.
If man’s rejection of Christ is as glorifying as salvation in Christ, they need to be consistent and preach that.
Don’t hold your breath for that!
Heather; Like fromoverhere says: “And ’round and ’round…..”
I 100% agree they exhaustively seem to be a very “humble” group and why don’t “we” just shut up and get along🤔🙃 If we look closely some of the dogmatic 5 point calvinist even think it’s our responsibility to get earth ready for Jesus to come back, so work at making it better here… so not being led by the Spirit, but rather legalisticly just do it.. clearly we aren’t preparing a place for Him to return that isn’t what Jesus said;
John 14:3 NKJV — “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
I think the worst thing for me about calvinism is those trusting this systematic blindly, because of hmm i don’t know -possibly many factors… and i literally can’t stand the thought of some new believer thinking this is the true character of our Holy God and then they don’t ask questions out of fear.. I definitely agree with those on here when they say; May God bless soteriology 101 always!! – it is needed🌻
fromoverhere: ” In all my years attending a Calvinist, Reformed church (we are missionaries sent out from one) I have never, ever heard a message on God ordaining and being glorified by evil. What’s more….. we should hear that kind of message all the time if it is so equal in truth and value to the “Doctrines of Grace.”
Yeah! If Calvinism’s god gets so much glory from evil, as much glory as from good, then why are Calvinists so reluctant to proclaim it outright? Calvi-god is apparently not ashamed of that “truth,” so why are Calvinists?
My Calvinist pastor actually did come right out and say that all tragedies in your life, including childhood abuse (a horrible evil), were ordained by God; for His glory, for your good, and because He knew what needed to happen to keep you humble. I wanted to throw up, and yet I heard moans of approval from the audience, as if they were trying to show how “humble” they are to accept such wretched sounding things about God’s “sovereignty.” It’s almost like a competition to see who can admit to believing the worst thing about God and who can admit to being the most depraved, wretched human being. It’s twisted. (That sermon was when I knew I was done listening to that man!)
But you see this is an never-ending cycle also.
You said this robotic pastor parroted ….. “because He knew what needed to happen to keep you humble..”
What? You are only gonna be as humble as He makes you right? I mean God (and Christ while on the earth) cannot “teach” us anything, since we are not making the choices anyway. I mean that rabbit hole just keeping deeper an’ deeper.
Restated: If what they say is true then even our response to the heinous act He foisted on us is programmed by Him, so why do the evil?
This is a great point and is the flip side to the question, if God unchangeably pre-determined the salvation of the elect, why pray, why evangelize. The standard answer to both questions is that it is a “predetermined means to a predetermined end”. Calvinists don’t seemto recognize that a pre-determined end renders a pre-determined means redundant. It’s what Roger Olson calls a “meaningless means”.
Br.d.: “If you disagree with me – then your disagreeing with scripture – and the inscrutable mysteries of god….”
Amazing how we common, lowly Christians can’t understand the “mysteries” of the things God clearly said in Scripture, but Calvinists have all the secret, hidden, double-layered things of God figured out! 😉
Heather
Amazing how we common, lowly Christians can’t understand the “mysteries” of the things God clearly said in Scripture, but Calvinists have all the secret, hidden, double-layered things of God figured out! 😉
br.d
Yeh!
They know exactly what god means by what he says
And especially when he means the opposite of what he says! :-]
Reggie: “i literally can’t stand the thought of some new believer thinking this is the true character of our Holy God and then they don’t ask questions out of fear.”
You hit the nail on the head about one of the most damaging things about Calvinism: what it does to God’s character and what it does to people’s faith to be told they have to believe the terrible things Calvinism teaches about God’s character.
No wonder lots of Calvinist celebrities have recently left the faith, having been brainwashed into believing that Calvinism IS the gospel. If I thought that’s what God was really like – like the Calvinist god – then I’d probably leave the faith too. Because there’s little difference between Calvinism’s god and Satan.
(But at least when it comes to Satan, we expect him to be – and know that he is – a deceiver and a liar who can’t be trusted, who twists Scripture, and who wants people to sin and do evil and reject Jesus and go to hell. But with Calvi-god, his outside doesn’t match his inside. He says one thing but means another. He presents only the good side, but he hides the bad side which looks an awful lot like Satan. Obvious lies are not as insidious and destructive as the subtle ones that look so close to truth that it’s hard to tell the difference. The subtle lies and twists are the ones that really trap people. And Calvinism abounds with those subtleties, which makes it more dangerous and more liable to deceive than something like, say, witchcraft.)
Heather,
Your imagery is spot on!! and the subtleties are sooooo devious, because they really can’t live out this systematic and trust good = good and wicked = wicked though they move away from saying this by twisting the truth- though we all know our righteousness comes only from Christ and what He did… But if everything i did prior and subsequently since becoming a believer by necessity (in calvinism), ie. out of my control.. what is life all about? and what’s the use??? To me this mocks the gift of life we have been given!!! & to live for the Lord after we know Him seems obscure in calvinism -at least if someone were intellectually honest.. we have the ministry of reconciliation, but if everything i do is completely set prior to my birth in one end result I’d feel like it’s a duty (job, chore) to witness, because we don’t know who has a yellow strip down their back (seriously this brings them comfort??…) I don’t see emotionless letters in the Bible, so i guess they can call me emotional…
And in regard to high jacking a church for calvinism… where is the kindness or love in purposely withholding truth in what a pastor believes about their soteriology view??? And to come in as a pastor under the guise of a neutral soteriology view, but really inwardly they are a calvinist… that would be masquerading as something you claim not to be🤔 Woe!
Our infinite God gives us much about His character within the Bible -He’s Amazing Strong, Wise and Wonderfully Perfect & He is Just.. But among the descriptors we have of how clearly Amazing God is… the simple phrase we find in 1 John 4:8… – for God is love. Love is not just what God does – which is clearly displayed in the cross. But it is rather Who He is!!
i read this some where and it’s great… “love invites our submission without robbing us of our autonomy” i find that to be powerful!
so true!! an all Knowing Creator doesn’t have to irresistibly grace me for me to see He’s, so beyond human understanding!!! That of itself is humbling not to mention the fact, that He loves me inspite of my sins.. Wow🙆♀️
Fromoverhere: “Restated: If what they say is true then even our response to the heinous act He foisted on us is programmed by Him, so why do the evil?”
Good point. If God ordained that we be humble, why can’t He just cause us to be humble? Why the need for evil? Could we have somehow chosen to be unhumble if the abuse didn’t happen, even though Calvi-god predestined we’d be humble? How “sovereign” is that!?!
And why bother trying to fight evil, if evil glorifies Calvi-god as much as good does? And why bother caring or putting effort into fighting evil or into being good? Whatever Calvi-god ordained is going to happen and we can’t change it. So let’s just wait and see what he makes us do, whether it’s being good or doing something wicked. We can’t stop what Calvi-god ordained. (Sounds a bit like how Hindus don’t interfere with the karmic destiny of the Untouchables.)
Calvinism really is a messed-up theology that can’t be lived out consistently.
“I mean that rabbit hole just keeping deeper an’ deeper.”
That’s exactly what I said about Calvinism too, the more I studied it!
I have commented many times on these pages that Calvinism is like Islam’s Qadr (fatalism). It all will be what God has ordained…. nothing you can do good or bad.
I mean Piper preaches against doing evil, but also preaches that we can all say at the end of each day that God had us do exactly what we did….and what He wanted.
Bring on the lasciviousness! And why not right? Apparently that honors God (“to humble us”) as much as anything else.
But really, bottom line…any Calvinists listening here: At the end of the day, you say that everything you did was exactly what God wanted/ planned/ ordained, right?
I sure dont!
End of the day Calvinist prayer:
Lord, forgive me for the sins that you had me commit today. Help me tomorrow to only do what you want (well, that’s a given cuz it is what happens, but I just wanted you to know that where my heart is…since you put my heart there).
Round and ’round and down that rabbit hole….
Br.d.: “They know exactly what god means by what he says
And especially when he means the opposite of what he says!”
That’s funny. 🙂
Must be nice to be a Calvinist, to be able to know when God means exactly what He says and when He means the opposite of what He says. No wonder we lowly Christians need to spend months studying their Calvinist literature, so that we can try to catch up with them. Otherwise, we might be tempted to think that God actually means what He says and says what He means every time He speaks. 😉
Yes!
Very TRUE
And the telling part for me – is their image of their deity just happens to condescendingly follow the same exact pattern.
He treats what he knows to be TRUE *AS-IF* it is FALSE – just like like the Calvinist does.
When we observe this as the case – it raises the question:
Does the Calvinist manifest that pattern because the Calvinist is made in the image of his god?
Or does Calvin’s god manifest that pattern because he is made in the image of the Calvin! ;-D
Reggie: “To me this mocks the gift of life we have been given!!! ”
True. And I would add it mocks God and Jesus’s work on the cross and the Gospel and faith and God’s grace and God’s forgiveness, etc. Everything is quite meaningless if everything has been predestined. Life is all one big charade, if Calvinism is true.
Yes Heather even you saying…
“Everything is quite meaningless if everything has been predestined. Life is all one big charade, if Calvinism is true.” has been scripted.
Even the youtube debate on infant baptism by Calvinists MacArthur and Sproul was scripted so that we can “decide” which position is right (but our decision was scripted too).
It’s like so many of my non-Calvinist friends say, “I was sovereignly ordained to be a non-determinist, non-Calvinist.”
Some of our young buck YRR Calvinist friends on this site might be saying, “That’s right FOH! You reprobates were set up as opposition to highlight the beauty and mystery of Calvinism!”
Man, if they draw “comfort” in that is truly sad.
Amen! & we trust in faith & through the harmony of God’s Word calvinism is the opposite of true🌻
Fromoverhere: “Some of our young buck YRR Calvinist friends on this site might be saying, “That’s right FOH! You reprobates were set up as opposition to highlight the beauty and mystery of Calvinism!” Man, if they draw “comfort” in that is truly sad.”
Yeah, and it’s also sad how they can’t see that this is God working against Himself. Calvi-god works against himself all the time: commanding evangelism but causing people to not evangelize, commanding obedience for his glory but causing sin for his glory, causing people to reject him after saying he wants all people to be saved, etc. A house divided cannot stand!
Which takes us back to the very point of the article – does Calvinism present or obscure the gospel? Rogers quotes Calvinist DeYoung asking “Is God wise enough to make himself known? Is he good enough to make himself accessible? Is he gracious enough to communicate in ways that are understandable to the meek and lowly? Or does God give us commands we can’t understand and a self-revelation that reveals more questions than answers?”
Obviously the divide is not over God’s wisdom. But DeYoung ignores the fact that Calvinism, in its very systematic, asserts that God is not good enough to make himself accessible. Under Calvinism, God is not gracious enough to communicate in ways that are understandable to the meek and lowly, or those who are too ‘dead’ to understand God.
Calvinism’s god does not simply give us commands we can’t understand, but commands that he knows we cannot possibly keep. And the price for not obeying these commands which we cannot keep, unless he graciously grants us the new life and alleged gift of faith that enables us to keep them, is eternal separation from God and his promise of eternal blessings.
This is so far from ‘graciousness’ that it looks pretty much like its antithesis, which is cruelty.
And in the face of this most cruel decision by the One who holds our destiny in his hands to withhold grace and life, any other ‘gnosis’ or questions don’t really seem to matter much.
Mr. Rogers was much too kind. Calvinism does not merely obscure the gospel, but horribly corrupts it, so that even those who might ‘understand’ it, unless they are one of the select lucky few, are left without hope.
TS00: “Mr. Rogers was much too kind. Calvinism does not merely obscure the gospel, but horribly corrupts it, ”
I kept meaning to get around to saying the same thing, but you said it for me. 🙂
“Obscure” is way too benign a description of what Calvinism does to the gospel. Obscure means to make it less clear. But Calvinism doesn’t just make the gospel less clear; it destroys it, twists it into something it’s not. The gospel is supposed to be good news for all people about what Jesus did for them and how they can be saved. But in Calvinism, it’s not “good news” for most people; it’s a death sentence. Hopeless, eternal condemnation. A cruel cosmic joke.
Mr Rogers… Nicer nicer than God? https://kgov.com/nicer-than-God and then “The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men.” C S Lewis
Typo, or confusing sentence:
“Because Jesus said he always did the will of the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38; 17:4) and spoke not of his own initiative but what the Father wanted him to speak (John 3:11, 34; 5:19; 7:16; 8:26, 28, 38; 12:49-50; 14:10, 24, 31; 17:8).”
OK to delete when moderator has seen this.
After being a Christian for nearly 60 years, I feel somewhat naive to finally understand that Augustinians (Calvinists, Lutherans and …) have re-defined what “faith” means (eg Eph 2:8-10). Because of that, it seems very clear that they preach a “different gospel” (Gal 1).
Most people interpret Gal 1 to be a rebuke of works-righteousness, but at this point, I do not see how Calvinists etc. can know anything about soteriology unless they look at works.
Like Heather said above “Calvinism doesn’t just obscure the simple, clear gospel message, but I think it presents a whole different gospel, obscured just enough so that it APPEARS to be the biblical gospel.”
This is a very, very, VERY big deal. Call it a Conspiracy, but it is no theory. I don’t see many people on the internet mention the “different gospel” connection to Augustine. Can I be wrong? Is it just me?
I highly recommend Dr. Ken Wilson’s “The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism.” It’s earth-shattering, but it seems to have been censored, given how little impact it seems to have had.
Hello Eric!
You said “This is a very, very, VERY big deal.”
Yes, I think so too, which is why I speak so forcefully against it.
I’ve had people (non-Calvinists) challenge me to be more loving/tolerant with Calvinism. They want me to give Calvinism the benefit of the doubt, to respect the fact that most Calvinists’ hearts are in the right place.
But while I respect the average Calvinist person (I believe most of them are manipulated/trapped into Calvinism without even realizing it, unaware of what Calvinism really teaches in the deeper layers), I will not be tolerant of the theology itself (or the educated teachers who push it on the trusting, naive masses). And in fact, I cannot be tolerant of it if I believe it truly is a false gospel disguised as the real thing.
Calvinism’s lies are so cleverly-disguised, so subtle, and that makes it even more dangerous, more likely to deceive and spread, than something that is clearly, obviously false/wicked such as, say, witchcraft or Hinduism. There are enough Christians who politely tolerate it (which is why it’s spread so far and wide) that we can’t lose the few voices who will/do speak out against it.
Recently someone on a different blog basically said that I was violating the Scriptural command of seeking peaceful unity with other believers when I call out Calvinism’s errors as forcefully as I do (he also said that he believes Calvinism’s idea of predestination is biblically inaccurate but that it doesn’t make Calvinism heretical or fundamentally dangerous). Here is my reply to him:
“You said “… is your response to Calvinists really ‘endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace’”. I have a heart for the average pew-sitting Calvinist, most of whom I think are just doing their best to try to be humble, God-honoring Christians, as taught them by the Calvinist leaders. But I cannot and will not seek unity with a theological system that damages God’s character, Jesus’s sacrifice, the gospel, and people’s chance to be saved the way Calvinism does. You said that “Calvinists agree with the entirety of scripture, but they interpret it differently than you and I do.” How much wrong interpretation should we put up with in the name of peaceful unity? Does “peaceful unity” imply “at all costs”, including massively different interpretations of God’s character and who Jesus died for and whether or not all can be saved and who ultimately causes sin, etc.? I’m asking this seriously, not sarcastically. I have heard many Calvinists use “peaceful unity” to keep people in line, to keep them from pushing back against their theology and voicing concerns. We need to be Bereans. To study Scripture for ourselves to see if what we are being taught is accurate. And if it’s not, then we need to push back and correct it, not tolerate it and let it grow/spread through our silence.”
And then I added this in reply to another commenter on the same issue:
“When it comes to Calvinism, I never thought much about it or would have developed such a forceful attitude against it if it weren’t for watching a Calvinist pastor take over our non-Calvinist church.
We got to see his manipulative tactics firsthand, such as how he shamed people who would disagree (framing them as prideful, self-righteous Christians who reject God’s sovereignty and try to steal His glory, etc.) and praised those who would agree (framing them as God-glorifying, humble, more intelligent Christians). And this was even before he began revealing his Calvinist views (which he did very slowly, over time, in between lots of manipulation and verse-twisting). He set people up to not want to disagree (or at least to not speak out about it) and to look down on anyone else who did disagree. (Maybe I noticed the manipulation more easily than others because I am a licensed counselor with a Master’s in Counseling Psychology.)
And we heard firsthand how he misused Bible verses to make them fit his view. We (my husband and I) wrote them down during every sermon and went home and read them in context for ourselves. And it was amazing how much his version did not line up with what the verse was saying in context. Calvinists teach you to read Calvinism into the Bible, while making you feel like it’s been there all along and that you just discovered it with their help.
And yet, no one else seemed to be alarmed. He carefully, strategically weaved his disguised Calvinism and twisted Scripture into his sermons, with lots of quotes from Calvinist authors, until he had everyone convinced that Calvinism is in the Bible.
And then after doing much more research about it and seeing how much it has spread with very little pushback and how most people are unaware of how it’s spreading (the tricks and tactics they employ), I felt compelled to take a very strong, vocal, active stand against it.
I agree with Kevin Thompson from Beyond the Fundamentals, that Calvinists will use our politeness against us, taking advantage of our niceness to push their views harder. And I agree with him that by the time you realize that your pastor is preaching Calvinism, by the time you are concerned enough to research what they’re saying to see if it’s accurate, it’s too late; they’ve already got a strong hold on most of the congregation by then.
And so, with their word games, Scripture twists, redefined words, manipulative tactics, and the strategic, stealthy ways they disguise/spread their theology, I don’t mince words or tiptoe through the T.U.L.I.P.s gently. Time is of the essence, and Calvinism is spreading much too fast and too strong to be overly gentle about it.”
[Just thought I’d share that here too, just because. It seems to fit. God bless!]
br.d
I think – knowing what I know about Heather – she is “Tolerant” of every living human being.
That would include those who are – by definition – followers of the reverend Sun Myung Moon
As well as those who are – by definition – followers of Joseph Smith
As well as those who are – by definition – followers of John Calvin.
The Christian is to love the sinner – while hating the sin.
Two predominant sins within Calvinism – are found within its language practices.
LANGUAGE MODE 1:THE LIE OF OMISSION
A lie of omission – is a strategic statement – designed to mislead – by OMITTING any critical fact – which if not OMITTED would not mislead.
The “T” , the “I” , and the “P” within Calvinism’s TULIP – for example – function as lies of omission.
LANGUAGE MODE 2: DOUBLE-SPEAK
Double-Speak is language designed to hide dark implications.
Double-Speak basically is language that pretends to communicate, but really doesn’t.
It is language designed to mislead, while pretending not to.
Double speak is not a slip of the tongue or a mistake in use of language. Its exactly the opposite.
It is language used by people who are very sophisticated in the use of language.
Calvinist language – is not a TRUTH-TELLING language.
Calvinist language is a COSMETIC language.
It is language designed to paint word pictures
It uses words to paint FACADES of things which do not actually exist within the belief system.
It uses words to hide things which do actually exist within the belief system.
Anyone who has to face these characteristics of Calvinism consistently enough – will understand what it means to love the sinner while hating the sin.
Br.d.,
Yes, thank you for your support, knowing that I would and do tolerate all people of all walks, loving the sinner while hating the sin. I believe every soul is worth it and has a chance to be saved, and so we need to do all we can to help others find their way to salvation, including respecting them and lovingly telling them the truth.
And I totally agree about Calvinism’s lies of omission and their double-speak. And we can totally see when they say things like “God commands all people to seek Him,” while secretly meaning “But no one can seek God unless and until God causes them to, and He will never cause the non-elect to” … and “God loves all people” while secretly meaning “But God has two different kinds of love, a saving one for the elect and a non-saving one for the non-elect” … and “Anyone who wants to can believe and be saved; God doesn’t force anyone to believe in Him” while secretly meaning “But only the elect can/will want to be saved because God gives them – and only them – the regenerated nature that contains the desire to be saved, and then since they ‘want’ to be believe and be saved, according the nature God gave them, He didn’t have to ‘force’ them to do it” … etc.
The things they hide change the meaning of everything they say. And I believe they know not to reveal the hidden stuff too quickly and too openly because it would scare people off (as if they could affect anyone’s destiny anyway, if God predestines/controls it all). They deliberately obscure what they really mean, the nasty side of Calvinism, to trick people into thinking we are on the same page so that they can hook you and reel you in deeper, bit by bit.
And for me, it’s the deliberate deception that is the most angering because it’s so stealthy and easily tricks naive people. And it’s also the most telling part of Calvinism, revealing who is really behind it. Because God is not a God of deception and confusion. He is not the father of lies. If He was, He couldn’t be trusted at all.
“Double-Speak is language designed to hide dark implications. Double-Speak basically is language that pretends to communicate, but really doesn’t. It is language designed to mislead, while pretending not to. Double speak is not a slip of the tongue or a mistake in use of language. Its exactly the opposite. It is language used by people who are very sophisticated in the use of language.”
Very insightful and well said! And it’s what makes Calvinism so dangerous, and yet so trusted by those who follow it but who are probably unaware of what Calvinism is really about!
“Anyone who has to face these characteristics of Calvinism consistently enough – will understand what it means to love the sinner while hating the sin.”
I really do feel for my Calvinist friends, who are some of the nicest people I know but who are trustingly following a twisted theology, all because they’ve been tricked into believing it’s the most biblical, most humble, most God-glorifying theology out there. It’s sad. I wish we could wake them up, but Calvinism can have a steel grip on people, because of its lies of omissions, double speak, twisted verses, and manipulative tactics. Many Calvinists really do think they are honoring God best by being Calvinists.
Thank you Heather
Well said!
In my observation – a very large percentage of Calvinists today – are unwittingly fed an “Arminianized” form of Calvinism.
They are not told what the underlying foundational core of Calvinism is.
Many are told Calvinism is best understood by the TULIP – because the TULIP functions to HIDE the underlying doctrine.
I bump into Calvinists almost daily – whose response to quotes from John Calvin is “I’m a Calvinist and we don’t believe that”
Actually they do believe it – because their pastor knows those quotes from Calvin are the foundational core of the doctrine.
But the Calvinist pastor also knows – if he reveals that to his congregation – most of them probably won’t come back.
That pastor envisions himself ending up with half a dozen congregants in his church – and he doesn’t want to see that happen.
A very high percentage of Calvinists are fed a consistent diet of a magical – sugar-coated version of Calvinism.
Calvinists today want a “softer” – “gentler” – “benevolent” version of Calvinism – where divine malevolence magically disappears..
They defer to the reformed confessions – because the confessions were created to avoid the *IN YOUR FACE* language which people cringed at within John Calvin’s writings.
Rock on Heather!
Sorry to hear about your church. I am really saddened that this kind of stuff happens. Maybe a ministry for Sot101, or others, is to provide a bible study for non-Determinists to be as wise as serpents (and harmless as doves!)? I know you care about the people in your church, so maybe the Lord will prompt you to just get started with whatever you can find? Totally unauthorized, of course? The stuff from Ken Wilson is unimpeachable (and I would love to hear if anyone has peer-reviewed-seriously criticized him, not the James White-style nonsense) and talks a lot about a firm foundation, which we should all agree on. Sounds uncomfortable, but so was the Son of Man, who had no where to lay his head.
I was hoping to get a notice about your reply, but apparently that’s not working. Being confused by that and FYI, I posted again below, some of which is similar, but said a different way.
Thank you, Eric. I appreciate it.
FYI, I don’t get notices about replies either – on purpose, to protect my time – so if I don’t respond to something someone says, it’s probably because I didn’t know their reply was there. I only know they’ve replied when I take a moment to get back on Sot101 and check through the comment section. God bless!
Br.d.: “Many are told Calvinism is best understood by the TULIP – because the TULIP functions to HIDE the underlying doctrine. I bump into Calvinists almost daily – whose response to quotes from John Calvin is “I’m a Calvinist and we don’t believe that”
Yeah, I doubt most even realize where their Calvinists beliefs lead, the inevitable, inescapable end points of the white-washed Calvinist pat-answers they’ve been taught. They’ve been shamed into not examining their own views too closely to see where they lead because to question Calvinism is to question God. And no good Christian wants to question God.
“Calvinists today want a “softer” – “gentler” – “benevolent” version of Calvinism – where divine malevolence magically disappears. They defer to the reformed confessions …”
They truly think that saying something like “We don’t believe God is the author of sin even though He predestines everything because the Westminster Confession says that God ordains everything but is not the author of sin.”
How does that answer anything? It doesn’t. It’s simply restating the contradiction, acting like it resolves the contradiction, while failing to address the very serious issues caused by the contradiction. It’s bizarre. Any thinking person can see so many errors in their “logic”, if we take the time to think for ourselves and compare everything they teach against what the Bible actually says.
And this is why Calvinist leaders make sure to try to prevent the average Calvinist from thinking for themselves, from looking into it too deeply, shaming them into accepting the nonsensical, contradictory, deceptive, Calvinist half-answers. They make sure to tell the congregation what to think, how to interpret Scripture in a Calvinist way, and then spend the rest of the time helping them “discover” Calvinism in the Bible (their twisted version of it), acting as if it’s been there all along, just waiting to be found after they were enlightened.
The Calvinist leaders will be accountable for deceiving and for spreading a bad theology, but the naive followers will be accountable for letting them, for not being Bereans. They have put their trust in men to tell them how to think, how to read the Bible, instead of heeding the Spirit’s red flags and examining Scripture for themselves. And as a result, the gospel is tarnished, God’s character is damaged, Jesus’s sacrifice is minimized, God’s love and grace are shrunken, and people’s faith and relationship with God is strained. It’s sad.
Oops, I forgot a part of a sentance … “They truly think that saying something like “We don’t believe God is the author of sin even though He predestines everything because the Westminster Confession says that God ordains everything but is not the author of sin” solves the problem, that it effectively answers the contradiction.”
Yes… Heather… there is an underlying allegiance to human authority and tradition that makes them unwilling to question the illogical and unscriptural accusations given against that authority and tradition. Jesus faced the same unwillingness in the scribes and Pharisees!
Yes!
Wonderfully said!
It is clear – when one reads John Calvin’s writings – that he creates the blue-print for what today is called “Milieu control”
Milieu control – produces what is called “Thought-Stopping” practices – which stop the mind from rational thinking..
Anytime your brain attempts to think rationally about the doctrine – will lead to examining the doctrine under the microscope of sound reasoning.
When that happens – the doctrine is found to be utterly self-contradicting and self-refuting.
Calvin cannot allow that to happen.- because the doctrine has become like a volcano god who demands a human sacrifice.
A man cannot serve two masters.
He will eventually compromise one in order to cleave to the other.
Calvin must compromise sound thinking in order to cleave to his doctrine – which has become his master.
So in order to make sure his disciples minds are kept securely captured within the prison cell of his doctrine – their minds must be conditioned to never open the prison cell door – or look out the prison cell window.
Calvinism is a form of mental ensnarement.
Agreed, on the point about mental enslavement.
Heather; “They have put their trust in men to tell them how to think, how to read the Bible, instead of heeding the Spirit’s red flags and examining Scripture for themselves. And as a result, the gospel is tarnished, God’s character is damaged, Jesus’s sacrifice is minimized, God’s love and grace are shrunken, and people’s faith and relationship with God is strained. It’s sad.”
Agreed!!! & those who finally know what is taught within calvinism, and go along with it hmm… .& then are careful not to reveal certain aspects up front odd at best… to me this is exactly as stated here “omission” to me it seems some sort of alarm should be sounding like… —hmm aren’t we called to bring things into the light???! Aren’t hidden things Not of God ding ding ding ⏰ I like Leighton’s take on the redundancy of Satan in calvinism “he” would not need to blind eyes that will never be opened…
2 Corinthians 4:2 NKJV — But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
A non biblical quote i like. —”We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.” ~ Aristotle
It seems the supposed “itchy blanket” they except as truth is more like a habit of trusting men above God… i fear if i just shut up to get along with someone who teaches this different gospel, then I’m just condoning it… I think your right it is like an iron grip, but light dispels darkness and we have to trust speaking up in love matters!!! I do tend to shy away from boldness with some family members who hold to this position & others who hold that without baptism your soul is going to hell… —Ugh no simplicity in either of these positions just baggage.. Thank you for your boldness🌻
Thanks Ronnie, and others that have posted here, but I have no idea what you are talking about. The article begins “I agree with the Calvinist claim that the gospel is simple and clear…” but I cannot agree, at all. I am not willing to concede when it comes to the gospel.
The Calvinist (and Lutheran, Manichean, Gnostic and ???) gospel is, simply, that God chooses. The gospel I know says that I choose (Free Will).
Somewhere, Leighton and the person he interviewed agreed that there are many things that Christians should be able to agree-to-disagree on, but not soteriology. That’s where we ‘put up our dukes.’ This is that fight, brothers and sisters.
Galatians is extremely clear and condemning of anyone that messes with the gospel. Paul goes on to describe the alternative, a Different Gospel, and most would agree that he is clearly pointing to a Pharisaical works-righteousness. But isn’t that what Calvinists (and Lutherans, Manicheans, Gnostics…) believe? According to them, why on earth should we believe Sproul, Packer, Spurgeon, Edwards, or anyone that preaches this Different Gospel? According to them, they have no idea whether they (or anyone else) are saved, so how can they claim that their Different Gospel saves? I’ll tell you how. Hubris. It’s Legalism, pure and simple. It’s staring at the scriptures (particularly Romans 9) and trying to have faith in logic, not in Jesus (“You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.” — John 5:39-40 NASB20).
Ronnie, Leighton and others, God bless you for what your doing, and I do appreciate the “sensitivity” of your position and mission. But it is like you are agreeing to step into their funhouse for the sake of cordiality, then actually start to believe what you see in the hall of mirrors. Don’t! When it comes down to it, they may be the ones that are shut out of the Kingdom, regardless of how many “miracles” they performed in His name.
They may preach the Gospel I know, but how can they say they are not bearing false witness? They use words like “believe” and “faith” knowing full well that their audience does not understand their secret definitions.
They seem to know the gospel mechanism and use it to get people in the door (and money in their coffers, and accolades on their walls…), but there is a huge risk that they (and some or many of their followers) are going to hear ‘Depart from me, I never knew you.’
Beyond their complex theology of determinism, there is a responsibility to ‘consider their end.’ This is not judgement, it is discernment. It is a time to be sober, and grieve, and roll up our sleeves for the work. This ministry has been a great help to me, but at some level, we are supposed to be harvesting (the lost), and let the blind lead the blind into the ditch.
To try to sum up simply: determinists don’t know whether they are saved, so they can’t claim to be Christian, so they shouldn’t be preaching the gospel.
br.d
Hi Eric,
If I understand what you are saying – you are saying you don’t agree with the gospel as it is defined by Calvinism.
Wouldn’t that be different from saying you agree that the gospel is simple and clear?
I think the gospel is simple and clear, and I think that the Different Gospel that determinists preach is extremely complex and opaque.
Yes!
Agreed!
I thought that was what you meant.
Thanks :-]
Eric,
Something I’ve noticed along the way:
Former Calvinists did not ditch everything Calvin.
When you read much of Ronnie’s posts on his blog, you will see. He is just one example. Even posts on here.
It’s no different than any reform, whether Lutheran or Calvin, both have not ditched everything Catholic, either.
From what I gather that all have in common is the word WORKS, as in the book of Romans discussing there is no one righteous, no not one… and yet, I can identify many righteous, more than one. They mention the filthy rags.
Some confuse the deeds of the law with YOUR OWN faith, therefore define faith as a work, because it is YOUR OWN faith, not an imputed one.
They also think that GOOD WORKS is what is being discussed regarding your own merit.
Anyone can do good works, but that’s not what James is talking about. Good works is an expectation of the ALREADY SAVED.
So… what is WORKS?
If you work, you EXPECT a wage. The wage is owed.
What is works?
Performing the law of Moses perfectly is earning a wage. But the Bible states for all have sinned, and the wages of sin is death. That grace is a free gift. All you have to do is believe it, aka faith, boom. Saved.
Faith is not a work, nor is it imputed. God does not choose…we do.
I can now hear both sides ask, “Well what about David, a sinner from the womb?”
They have twisted what that states, and made a doctrine out of their erroneous interpretation.
Yes, the Bible is free from error, blah, blah. But man can’t comprehend what it states.
David’s mother conceived David in sin. She was sinning against her husband, because she SECRETLY slept with him, trading places with a someone. You can research this from Jewish web sites, then you would understand what the whole family despised David, because they thought of him as illegitimate. David’s father had no idea that he was the father, and David’s mom winds up pregnant. She was despised, too.
Preachers and teachers today make things difficult. Like the pharisees for the Jews.
Chapmaned: “I can now hear both sides ask, “Well what about David, a sinner from the womb?”. They have twisted what that states, and made a doctrine out of their erroneous interpretation…. David’s mother conceived David in sin. She was sinning against her husband, because she SECRETLY slept with him…”
Interesting. I never heard that about David’s mother secretly sleeping with the father, but it would go along with the KJV of that verse:
Psalm 51:5: “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
That is what the verse should be, but many modern translations have changed it to:
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” (NIV)
“For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.” (NLT)
“Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.” (Berean study Bible)
“Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.” (CSB)
“I have sinned and done wrong since the day I was born.” (CEV)
Those versions say something very, very different from the KJV. And this difference can have a huge effect on people’s theology, on whether we believe in total depravity (total inability) from the womb or not, on whether babies are wicked, unregenerated “vipers in diapers” or not.
Personally, based on my research, I believe the KJV to be the most accurate translation, and so I would say that David is saying that he was conceived in sin, not that he was sinful/guilty from birth. It’s not a verse about his moral condition from birth but about the condition he was conceived in.
Heather,
Indeed there is a huge difference between the KJV and all the other versions. That’s why I don’t trust other versions.
What got me curious about the whole story is that David’s whole family despised him, and I wanted to know why. The bible does not delve into that at all. David’s mother’s name was Nitzevet, and that name is not mentioned in the Bible.
I found the following on a Jewish website, celebrating the life of David’s mother, which does tell the complete story:
https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/280331/jewish/Nitzevet-Mother-of-David.htm
It also goes into detail about Jessie, David’s father, and WHY he was going to sleep with who he planned on sleeping with.
Jessie was in DOUBT of his Jewish heritage, because his grandmother, Ruth, was a Moabite. People should know that the Jewish line is thru the mother, not the father, and with Ruth being a Moabite, Jessie struggled with the thought that maybe he isn’t a Jew after all. It was forbidden to marry a Moabite.
In the end, you see that God had accepted Ruth as a Jew, much like a proselyte, in which is proven by the deeds of one anointed King David, which God chose. But again, you must keep in mind that it was God who forbade marrying Moabite women. Hence, the struggle.
And you will read why he was going to sleep with a particular person, but his wife spoke to that woman, and they switched places.
Ed Chapman
Thanks CHAPMANED24, it is helpful to know Ronnie’s perspective. But if that is the case, it certainly adds another layer of complexity to the discussion. I guess I’m glad I spoke up then.
Eph 2:8-10 harmonizes James and Paul (until the determinist redefines ‘grace’ and ‘faith’). If you have real faith, you will do good works (though I think a lot of works done by those that call themselves Christians, even determinists, are just wood, hay, stubble). David may have been saying no more than he recognizes that reproduction is a very strong drive (work), and it is made holy only when children are brought into the world for more than just biology (I’m a biologist, so that would of course be my perspective :).
Here’s a bombshell, which perhaps betrays my own hubris, but… I don’t find any contradictions in the Bible. Somebody, please help me find one… 😉 With determinism, there are certainly “mysteries” they will admit to, but many (many, many) flat out contradictions that are only solved by extra-Biblical redefinitions.
As we are seeing now, many of these churches have turned very liberal, and I have it on good authority that the laity now demands far more than what the clergy are comfortable with. They have sown the wind.
Back to the gospel, we should all be recognizing that there is only One Way. It makes me very concerned when people call themselves Christians and don’t recognize that.
Eric,
Thanks for the reply. In Galatians 5, it talks about FREEDOM.
I wanted to know what this freedom thing was all about. Freedom from what, exactly?
This was when I was studying the 7th Day Adventists (not to be one, just to find out why they insist going to church on Saturday).
Anyway, here is my very small interpretation of Calvinism:
They (both sides) constantly quote “for there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, male or female…IN CHRIST”
THEY forget the IN CHRIST part tho.
And they definitely tell you the difference between male and female…that is ingrained.
So, outside of IN CHRIST, there is a difference between Jew and Gentile.
Calvinists take what was meant for Jews ONLY, and make it apply to EVERYONE, because, as they say, FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE”.
I disagree… for there is a huge difference.
They also use the word ELECT to mean both Jew and Gentile who are saved, or will be saved. That is true for the Jew, but not the Gentile.
Both sides do this.
Abraham was never under the law. That topic is virtually ignored, or minimized. Yet, we are sons of Abraham.
Isaac didn’t have the law either.
Not Jacob, either. But the children of Jacob did.
What is it about that law of Moses separates Jew and gentile?
The word KNOWLEDGE is ignored, as in Tree of Knowledge, and that the ignorant…
I’ll leave it right there, because that leads to the topic of children, which both sides has a thought, that maybe God gives those children MERCY?
MY study shows that no one is imputed sin unless they first have Knowledge of it being a sin.
And that goes back to Adam. Until Knowledge… care free. Innocent.
Basically, God told Adam to remain ignorant (don’t eat), but Satan said, “Stop being so ignorant, and get educated!”. So, they ate, and got Knowledge of their sins.
Knowledge…
Ed Chapman
Hi Ed
Actually I spent an hour reaponding to you yesterday, the my fat finger pressed a different link and now its gone. Is there a way to PM you without violating privacy?
Eric,
No, there is no DM’s here that I know of, but my email is chapmaned24@yahoo.com
AndyB2015 , you said in your post of January 31, 2022
“Just the cache of extra-biblical concepts needed to characterize Calvinism as a biblical position is telling”. And then the author goes on to do a great job of summarizing all of the “two’s” and “mysteries” of Calvinism, none of which are explicitly found in scripture. This is so true and this is a part of two of the four main reasons I rejected Calvinism as a false, unbiblical doctrine.” What are your other two or more reasons for Rejecting Calvinism ? What else makes you think Calvinism is False, what do you think of the way Calvinists Interpret Scripture ? Would you say Calvinism produces bad fruits or shows a lack of love ? The word “Trinity” is no where to be found in the Bible, yet the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught
If I had a dime for every outright lie in this thread I’d be in Elon Musk’s tax bracket.
Hello Lonnie and welcome.
A claim – without evidence – is simply an unsubstantiated claim.
And in most cases – the reason no evidence is provided – is because the person making the claim knows it is false.
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You do have the option of trying to provide evidence.
The we can see whether your claim is TRUE or FALSE
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Otherwise – blessings!
br.d
I think Lonnie was attempting some kind of pithy soundbite, MacArthur style. And of similar value.
br.d
I get a kick out of MacArthur.
He’s just as much a DOUBLE-SPEAK artist as John Piper is.
He’s obviously not as smooth about it as Piper is.
But he tries! :-]
Gotta wonder why Lonnie would even bother with such a vague comment. It’s silly
Heather, oops, sorry, that was meant for Lonnie.
br.d
In my dialogs with Calvinists – that kind of behavior is typical
They know they really don’t have any LOGICAL leg to stand on.
Asserting bold-claims “making believe” they are true – produces an artificial form of self assurance
Would you care to engage, or are you just a drive-by? Been waiting for days for you to expound and elaborate. I’ve got $5 roll of dimes for you!
Ed Chapman
Lonnie Vang,
Would you care to engage, or are you just a drive-by? Been waiting for days for you to expound and elaborate. I’ve got $5 roll of dimes for you!
Ed Chapman
This page is the reason why Calvinism is NOT from the Bible! It is the invention of “sin” in one mans mind which given free reign has become a disease that has brought millions to Hell. Commentary battling Commentary for 500 years is how Satan works with this Heresy.
Welcome Tom! You might consider a more constructive criticism approach, adding helpful evidence in support to your condemnatory conclusions.
2Ti 2:25-26 NKJV – (25) in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, (26) and [that] they may come to their senses [and escape] the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to [do] his will.
br.d prca.org has an article headlined
“CALVINISM…the Truth (Arminianism the Lie)”
BY HARBACH, ROBERT
How would you respond to this article ?
br.d
Hello Jeff
Hope all is well with you today.
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Go to the article you are looking at – and collect the arguments you think are the strongest – and bring them back here -so that we can scrutinize them together.
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It is important to me that you learn how to quickly recognize how self-contradicting Calvinist arguments are.
Then in the future – when you come across a Calvinist article you won’t need anyone’s help recognizing it for yourself.
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BTW: You should be aware – Arminianism is itself an offshoot of Calvinism
And it retains certain elements of Calvinism.
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Now there are other Christian views which do not have any elements of Calvinism in them at all.
That raises the question – of why Calvinists seem to be so obsessed over differences between themselves and Arminians.
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One would think the Calvinist would be more focused on Christian view which don’t have any elements of Calvinism in them at all – rather than Arminianism which does.
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So I would also be interested in your thoughts on why that is the case with Calvinists.
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ur frnd,
br.d
br.d , 4 years ago a Question on the website quora.com was
“What is the appeal of Calvinism? Why were you (or someone you know) drawn to it?” A person replied
“Most critics of Calvinism don’t really understand what it is, and they are put off by it because of their own traditions and religious conditioning.
We’ve all been told that WE are the captains of our own destiny. That WE make the choice whether to accept Jesus or not. WE have been indoctrinated to believe that God is offering Salvation to all, but it is up to US to accept it or not. What WE don’t realize is that this in itself is a man-centered theology, and it is a tradition that WE have come to blindly accept as the truth.
But Calvinism rocks that boat, and it threatens the cocoon that we have safely spun around ourselves—that feeling of being in control of our eternal destinies. Calvinism puts man back in his proper place… At God’s mercy.
Even though I understand these things, I am not a Calvinist. I was drawn to the doctrines of Grace because they accurately described my Salvation. The way I had come to Christ.
Even though I had earnestly repeated “The Sinner’s Prayer,” I did not get Saved in that moment. In fact, nothing happened at all. I got Saved 2 days later while standing in an alley behind a Burger King restaurant. In one moment, my eyes were opened, my dead spirit was raised to life, I understood who Jesus really was, and the Holy Spirit began residing within me. I contributed nothing to this life changing experience, and yet I sat in churches for decades, that told me otherwise.
When I first encountered the doctrines of Grace, or Calvinist theology, I was opposed to it. But after a considerable amount of research, and reading and listening to many debates, I concluded that the theology is sound. I discovered that NO ONE can argue with a Calvinist who knows how to do a proper exegesis of the Scriptures. Reading the exegesis of John chapter six and seeing the lame and misguided objections to it by the so called scholars who were opposed to Calvinism, is what won me over.
I ended up going to a Calvinist church for about 4 or 5 years, and then I left. Even though Calvinists are right about many things in my opinion, they are also wrong about just as many things. Calvinism leads many believers into legalism, and in some circles, it silences the voice of God. Some believe that God can ONLY speak to us through The Bible, and they silence that still small voice of God within our own hearts. They also ignore the work of the Holy Spirit.
I left Calvinism because I grew weary of living the Christian life through only my head. I wanted to live from my heart, and I wanted to be open to all the ways that God speaks to his children. I long to be free. But I will always embrace the doctrines of Grace. I was Saved only because of God’s mercy. I didn’t choose Him. He chose me.”
How would you respond ? Why is the Bible so difficult to interpret ?
Couldn’t God have made it Easier to interpret and comprehend
Jeff: “Why is the Bible so difficult to interpret ?”
I think it’s only difficult for Calvinists to interpret because of the mess their theology makes of it. They start with their own presuppositions, wrong ideas, wrong definitions, etc. and then they change God and the Bible to fit their ideas, which then makes a problem/contradiction somewhere else, which they then have to try to solve by changing other verses to fit, which then makes new problems/contradictions they need to solve … and so on and so forth.
It’s only a problem because Calvinists refuse to read it plainly, in context. They create a mess they cannot clean up, which is why they always have to resort to “Who are you to question God?” and things like that. That’s my opinion on it.
(And they make a mess for non-Calvinists by presenting a different gospel but calling it “the gospel,” which makes some people doubt the truth or have a hard time figuring it out because we have to spend time wading through their false ideas and bad definitions and hidden layers, etc., comparing and contrasting it all with the Bible, trying to figure out what’s wrong and what’s right.)
And here are some of my thoughts on the article you quoted:
First, he says “Most critics of Calvinism don’t really understand what it is, and they are put off by it because of their own traditions and religious conditioning.”
This contradicts his Calvinism. If we are put off by it, it’s because Calvi-god caused it for his glory. Ironically, this guy teaches that we can’t choose Jesus, but we can choose to be put off by Calvinism because of how our circumstances make us think about it. Most Calvinists contradict their Calvinism in many ways.
Then he presents non-Calvinism as man-centered, like we think we are fully in control of everything in our life and like God has no control, no influence. It’s a false “all or nothing” dichotomy, trying to use people’s humility to manipulate them into Calvinism. But let’s give the flipside of his second paragraph to see what he’s really saying: “We have nothing to do with where we end up eternally. We cannot choose to accept or reject Jesus. Salvation is not offered to all. And if you believe otherwise, you elevate mankind over God and have been brainwashed.”
Not so appealing that way, is it? No wonder Calvinists won’t come out and say what they really believe. No wonder they have to shame and manipulate people into Calvinism, because it sounds terribly hopeless if you really understand what it’s teaching.
“Even though I understand these things, I am not a Calvinist.”
Ha ha ha! Yeah, right!
“I was drawn to the doctrines of Grace because they accurately described my Salvation.”
No, he was drawn to Calvinism because he had no choice, because Calvi-god forced him to. Once again, it’s ironic that he scolds non-Calvinists for thinking we make choices and for elevating man, and yet he fails to give God the credit here for forcing him into the “doctrines of Grace.” He gives himself and his clever thinking the credit for seeing the “accuracy” of Calvinism and choosing to believe in it.
“Even though I had earnestly repeated “The Sinner’s Prayer,” I did not get Saved in that moment. In fact, nothing happened at all. I got Saved 2 days later while standing in an alley behind a Burger King restaurant. In one moment, my eyes were opened, my dead spirit was raised to life, I understood who Jesus really was, and the Holy Spirit began residing within me. I contributed nothing to this life changing experience, and yet I sat in churches for decades, that told me otherwise.”
I wonder how he knows for sure this is the moment he got saved. It sounds to me like he’s trusting in his emotional experience of feeling filled with the Spirit as proof that he was saved. But the Bible says that if we repent and believe, we will be saved. Our assurance should be in God’s promise to save anyone who believes in Jesus, not in our feeling of having our eyes opened and the Spirit fill us. Once again, this sounds like he’s putting his faith in himself, in his human experience, instead of the Word.
“When I first encountered the doctrines of Grace, or Calvinist theology, I was opposed to it.”
I wonder why Calvi-god would cause people to oppose Calvinism? It’s strange that he causes both the opposition to Calvinism and the acceptance of Calvinism, that he’s equally glorified by both. A city divided against itself cannot stand.
“After a considerable amount of research, and reading and listening to many debates, I concluded that the theology is sound.”
Once again, giving himself the credit for figuring it out.
“I discovered that NO ONE can argue with a Calvinist …”
It’s sad that more people aren’t able to intelligently argue against Calvinism.
“Even though Calvinists are right about many things in my opinion, they are also wrong about just as many things. Calvinism leads many believers into legalism…”
If Calvinism is true, this is exactly according to God’s plans then, for His glory. So why would this guy think he can oppose or criticize that? His very response to it contradicts his Calvinist theology.
“I left Calvinism …”
No, he didn’t. He left a stricter form of how it’s lived out, but he did not leave the Calvinist theology itself because he “will always embrace the doctrines of Grace.”
“I was Saved only because of God’s mercy. I didn’t choose Him. He chose me.”
Non-Calvinists don’t claim we’re saved apart from God’s mercy. We just think this mercy is available to all, that anyone can be saved because the offer for salvation is given to all, and we all have the ability to accept it. God chooses to give eternal life to anyone who chooses to put their faith in Jesus.
That’s my thoughts on the article. God bless, Jeff.
Oops, I meant “A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.” But I’m sure you knew that. 🙂
br.d
Hello Jeff.
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Jeff
a Question on the website quora.com was
“What is the appeal of Calvinism? Why were you (or someone you know) drawn to it?” A person replied
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br.d
Jeff – you should know the *TRUE* Calvinist answer to this question by now!
1) In Calvinism *NOTHING HAPPENS* that is not knowingly and willingly decreed
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2) Accordingly – *NO IMPULSES WITHIN THE HUMAN BRAIN HAPPEN* unless those impulses are knowingly and willingly decreed
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3) No *ALTERNATIVES* from that which is decreed to infallibly come to pass is granted existence within creation.
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Therefore – in Calvinism – the only reason a human brain would be drawn to Calvinism – is because Calvin’s god decreed the impulse within that human brain – to be drawn to Calvinism. And the impulse to be drawn away from Calvinism would also be decreed to infallibly come to pass within the brain.
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In either case – the human brain is not granted any say in the matter of impulses decreed to infallibly come to pass within it.
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Jeff:
A person replied
“Most critics of Calvinism don’t really understand what it is, and they are put off by it because of their own traditions and religious conditioning.
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If that person is a Calvinist – he is in denial of his own doctrine which stipulated divine sovereignty in the form of infallible decrees is the CAUSE of EVERYTHING in Calvinism.
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Jeff:
Even though I understand these things, I am not a Calvinist. I was drawn to the doctrines of Grace because they accurately described my Salvation. The way I had come to Christ.
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br.d
Jeff – if you call Calvinism “Doctrines of Grace” then you have been fooled by Calvinism’s deceptive language.
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Calvinism – incorporates DUALISM.
And that DUALISM is why so many thing appear in “Antithetical” or “Good-Evil” pairs.
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An integral part of Calvinist doctrine – includes a THEOS who is the divine potter of Romans 9 – who creates the *MANY* specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
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Like so many things within Calvinism – “Grace” is DUALISTIC
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1) Calvin’s god – the divine potter of Roman’s 9 – has a *PRIMARY* “Grace” which he provides for the *MANY*
Calvin’s god’s *PRIMARY* grace creates the *MANY* specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
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2) Calvin’s god – the divine potter of Romans 9 – also has a *SECONDARY* grace which he provides for the *FEW*
Calvin’s god’s *SECONDARY* grace saves the *FEW* from his *PRIMARY* grace.
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Now in Calvinism – you have no way of knowing which grace applies to you – because that is a divine secret which only Calvin’s god knows.
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Calvin’s god creates the WHEAT within the church – and he creates the CHAFF within the church.
The CHAFF are divinely deceived – being given a *FALSE SENSE* of salvation.
Many Calvinists will eventually wake up in the lake of fire and realize the divine potter created them as CHAFF.
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Any Calvinist who is going to be intellectually honest – must swallow the WHOLE CAMEL.
He must acknowledge – Calvin’s god may have created him for eternal torment in the lake of fire.
In such case – he will eventually wake up and find himself in the lake of fire – for Calvin’s god’s good pleasure.
The guy in the article said “… I am not a Calvinist. I was drawn to the doctrines of Grace because they accurately described my Salvation.”
Br.d. responded “if you call Calvinism “Doctrines of Grace” then you have been fooled by Calvinism’s deceptive language.”
I thought practically the same thing when I read that. The “Doctrines of Grace” IS Calvinism, just a more flowery way of saying it. It might fool many people if someone says “I don’t believe in Calvinism but I do believe in the doctrines of grace,” but it won’t fool anyone here at SOT 101.
Yes, it is good they drop the name “Calvinism” but they should be more honest and call their view “Pre-creation Immutable, Exhaustive Determinism”, imo.
Brian: “they should be more honest and call their view “Pre-creation Immutable, Exhaustive Determinism”, imo.”
I agree. And they should be more honest about a lot of other things too.
Fromoverhere: “I think the “You dont know Calvinism” line should be used on Calvinists!!”
True! That’s why I think a lot of them only think they are Calvinists, because they call themselves Calvinists without having actually thought through it all, carrying it out to its natural terrible ends.
br.d
I think the *MODE* of what we consistently see here – was clearly identified by the Apostle Paul who uses the Greek word μετασχηματίζεται – “metaschēmatizontai” – to describe it.
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Metaschēmatizontai has to do with creating an *APPEARANCE*
The process of making something *APPEAR* to have attributes – which at a given moment – or for a given audience – are deemed desirable.
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It is blatantly evident – the Calvinist focus – is not a focus on AUTHENTICITY.
He is not focused on painting a *TRUE* picture
There is a heavy reliance upon *NOT* telling the *WHOLE* truth
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Pretty much a every Calvinists *IMAGE* of Calvinism – can be recognized as the urgency for create an *APPEARANCE* which that given Calvinist finds palatable. His particular *PORTRAIT* of Calvinism – which he wants to present to others.
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This becomes laughable – when a John MacArthur type will make jokes or critical statements against some NON-Calvinist system.
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When this happens – you just wait and watch – and what you’ll observe is guaranteed
That Calvinist will spend 5% of his time attacking some NON-Calvinist systematic.
And then spend the remaining 95% of his time trying to make Calvinism *APPEAR* to have the very attributes of the system he was just attacking.
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For this reason – Calvinism has often been called a CHAMELEON system.
Br.d I absolutley agree with you all –to actually think the doctrines of grace is not a link to calvinism is either #1 naive or #2 other… I’ve also heard them call it “sovereign grace” as well, which may sound nice if we all had the same dictionary, but they mean exactly what we see..
Br.d; “There is a heavy reliance upon *NOT* telling the *WHOLE* truth”
Hmm i have a huge problem with deceptive language!!! why hide what you believe.. maybe they really don’t see it, or worse they see calvinism for what it is and find comfort in it.. which to me would be completley horrifying if anyone finds comfort in exhaustive devine determinism prior to any true or meaningful thought they have ever had.. -which of course would have already been ordained prior to creation in EDD..
i***f this system were true calvinist sure would be the lucky few.
Thanks be to God i don’t believe in luck anymore!!! 🌻
2 Corinthians 9:15 NKJV — Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!
Jeff,
I’m a bit late here…… I notice that this article said ….
“Even though I had earnestly repeated “The Sinner’s Prayer,” I did not get Saved in that moment. In fact, nothing happened at all. I got Saved 2 days later while standing in an alley behind a Burger King restaurant. In one moment, my eyes were opened, my dead spirit was raised to life, I understood who Jesus really was, and the Holy Spirit began residing within me. I contributed nothing to this life changing experience, and yet I sat in churches for decades, that told me otherwise.”
This is just silly and certainly not Calvinistic! In Calvinism, you are too-dead to even say the sinner’s prayer. You are too-dead to make a decision to “sit in churches for decades”. I mean you are a “God-hater” not a “God-seeker” in Calvinism. Why in the world would you sit in churches for decades and pray the sinner’s prayer if you were “6-feet-under” and a “God-hater”?
Remember that Calvinism teaches that you hate all things about God until He regenerates you and makes you alive.
If that Quora person had said, “I was a scum-loving, people-hating, murder-loving, God-hating, abortion-loving, pornography-using sinner and no one had ever preached the Gospel to me….but God opened my eyes in that alley….” Okay….yeah….some of us could roll with that.
But nooooo, Quora-dude wrote that he was “seeking” by going to church for decades and saying the sinner’s prayer. It was the “preached Gospel” that opened his eyes!
Man….I think the “You dont know Calvinism” line should be used on Calvinists!!
As I was doing more study of the Early church fathers, not 1 believed in a deterministic God, or put it the another way, they All believed man had a free will,an there was no doubt that we could do right or wrong. Calvin in His debates, completely dissed the early nicene fathers,and never brought them up but did say we must move on from them!Calvin quotes Augustine,as you know hundreds of times especially in the area of determinism.Augustine was battling the issue of free will and determinism, for a long time and kept two sets of writings on both.There is no doubt that Augustine came back to his Manichean and Stoic thoughts in 411 right after accusing Pelagian of 14 heresies -13 of which were dismissed, an even admitted they were false Cept for pelagian denying original sin! As I see it Calvin was so influenced by Augustine and his views on solid determinism, that many calvanistic thoughts are entrenched in Gnostic applications. Why would Calvin dismiss the early fathers, who almost All went to thier deaths for thier beliefs in Christ, and that all could come to God as he commanded.
Bob
Why would Calvin dismiss the early fathers, who almost All went to their deaths for their beliefs in Christ, and that all could come to God as he commanded.
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br.d
Hello Bob and welcome
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From my observation – there are 3 reasons for this.
1) Calvin was a young man at the time – in his 20s and from my observation – he was very intent on making a name for himself. In such case – relying on Augustine as his primary appeal to authority would make sense because of the respect had for Augustine in those days.
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2) Calvin – was himself still to some degree a Catholic. N.T. Wright for example – calls Calvin a Catholic with a small “c”.
So it makes sense that he would rely on a Catholic theologian as the launching point to make a name for himself.
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3) It is apparent in Calvin’s writings – that he had a love affair and worshipful adoration for all things Augustine.
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Yes I think your summation is pretty correct.
Augustine – in his initial days as a Catholic theologian – is in alignment with the early church Fathers regarding free will.
Augustine’s nature however appears to be confrontational. The development of his theology formed within his debate with the Gnostics – and then later with Palageus.
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His views on human free will are very libertarian in the first half of his debating carrier with the Gnostics
However – what Augustine will not be prepared for – is the fact that Palageus is very familiar with the arguments Augustine uses against the Gnostics. And Palageus unwittingly assumes Augustine is going to be intellectually honest and acknowledge his own arguments which Palageus is simply re-iterating back to him.
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But it appears Augustine’s competitive nature is such that having Palageus re-iterating back to him his own arguments frustrates him. So as you allude – Augustine then flips his position – and relies upon the arguments of the Gnostics to defeat Palageus.
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So this will be seen as Augustine’s second theological phase – in which he is essentially taking the Gnostic position he earlier argued against – and using that position as his debate strategy against Palageus.
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This tells us – the probability is – Augustine had a very competitive nature – and a kind of lust for authority.
And in my mind – a young 20 year old John Calvin would find himself thirsty for the same.
So at the core of all this is Calvinism preaching a false gospel? I have heard a Calvinist say from the pulpit “Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved”. But what they truly means is all who are the elect and receove regeneration before hearing the gospel will be saved. I have never heard Leighton Flowers or Mike Winger state that Calvinism is a false gospel. So if Calvinists do not preach a gospel why worry about it? PS I am noy and never have been a Calvinist.
Welcome NGZ! Thank you for your important question. Of course, a false gospel is more harmful than unsound doctrine, but unsound doctrine harms spiritual growth in believers and push unbelievers away from the true gospel. Consider this – Calvinism’s harm
The issue isn’t Calvinism as much as it is the false underlying teaching in it of the eternal immutable predestination of all things before creation to work out only one way.
That harmful teaching affects one’s motivation for evangelism and one’s confidence in prayer, one’s trust in the clarity of God’s self revelation in the Scriptures, and one’s attempt to worship God for His holiness.
2Co 5:14 NKJV – For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; [the clear motivation should be love for all the lost when witnessing, but for the Calvinist evangelism is only a duty]
Mat 24:20 NKJV – “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.” [the clear indication that their prayers would be used in determining when the fall of Jerusalem would happen, but the Calvinist denies prayer changes or influences divine choices that are not yet made]
Gen 6:6 NKJV – And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. [the clear indication that God was sorry that He made man, and was grieved in His heart, but the Calvinist firmly denies that God can experience such grief].
Psa 29:2 NKJV – Give unto the LORD the glory due to His name; Worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness. [the clear indication that God’s holiness is beautiful, but the Calvinist wants God’s eternal hatred for most of mankind to be declared holy.]
******* Calvinists should be asked –
Do you have the motivation of longsuffering love for all unbelievers, especially those that are hardened against the gospel and aggressive towards you? Or does your motivation of duty in evangelism get too quickly satisfied and does the thought of their probable reprobation make you move away from them too soon? Or does the thought enter your mind that if they are one of the elect they’ll get saved anyway, and does that also make you move away from them too soon?
Do you believe your prayer will influence God to send more gracious opportunity to the unbeliever to seek Him, than He would have if you hadn’t prayed?
Do you believe God grieves when one dies lost and condemned for rejecting His mercy that they could have humbly received? Do you grieve?
Do you really believe that God in His holiness went against His own definition of justice and decreed the creation of many people who would be unable to ever hear His call of mercy, who would only be able to sin, and then God would condemn them to everlasting torment for rejecting His call of mercy, which they could not hear, and condemn them for all those eternally immutably predestined sins?
Here’s a good short video the rightly describes harmful Calvinism – https://youtu.be/VTghv1_OCfM
br.d
Hello nogoofyzone and welcome.
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What you are noticing about Calvinist statements is pretty much ubiquitous with Calvinist language.
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When you said “What the Calvinist really means is…..” you were pointing out the fact that Calvinist language is a CLOAKED language – where many terms and phrases and sentences have INSIDER and CLOAKED meanings.
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You were able to discern what the CLOAKED meaning was within that statement that you quoted – because you understand Calvinism’s underlying doctrine.
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Typically when hard-core Calvinists are speaking – and they know the audience they are speaking to are also hard-core Calvinists who do not flinch at the aspects of divine malevolence within the doctrine – then in those instances Calvinists do not feel the need to OBFUSCATE or MASQUERADE the doctrine as something it isn’t.
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But most of the time – Calvinists are speaking to mixed audiences.
John Piper for example – has an audience of people in which very few are hard-core Calvinists
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A large percentage of them are only comfortable with a sugar-coated version of the doctrine where the components of divine evil are OBFUSCATED.
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Also – a percentage of John Piper’s audience are people who are not Calvinists.
For those people – Piper has to be especially careful to used CLOAKED language – because if he speaks plainly and clearly in hard-core Calvinistic terms – he knows those people will leave and never come back.
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So your discernment is right-on!
And yes – one has to ask why it would be necessary for Calvinists to OBFUSCATE critical aspects of the doctrine – in order to make the doctrine APPEAR to be something it really isn’t.
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Personally – for me – the fact that Calvinists OBFUSCATE things behind CLOAKED language – serves as a red-flag that they know there are aspects of the doctrine NON-Calvinist Bible readers are going to reject.
And they are very careful to OBFUSCATE those aspects of the doctrine.
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For me – Calvinism’s language manifests a degree of dishonesty.
And one does not dishonesty from God or from the Bible.
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Blessings!
br.d
Good question, NFZ. And good answers, Brian and Br.d.
Personally, and maybe this is just me, but I do say that Calvinism is a false gospel and that it severely damages God’s character, His Word, Jesus’s sacrifice, and people’s ability to be saved.
I believe the Bible says that God truly loves all people, that Jesus died for all sins of all people, that salvation is truly offered to all people, that God is not responsible for evil or sins or unbelief, and that the one “work” we must do to be saved is to believe in Jesus (it is our responsibility, and all people have the option/ability to do it).
But this is the opposite of what Calvinism teaches (underneath all the deceptive layers they use to obscure it), which is that God only really loved the elect enough to save them, that Jesus only died for the elect, that salvation is only truly offered to the elect, that God is the ultimate (and essentially only) cause of sin, evil, and unbelief (but He punishes us for it), and that we cannot believe in Jesus, unless and until God makes us do it.
These are opposing messages, opposing gospels. And so I have to call Calvinism a false gospel. It has a different idea of who God is, how God works, how salvation happens, who Jesus died for, who’s responsible for evil, etc.
If God says we have to believe in Jesus to be saved (that it’s our responsibility and choice), but Calvinism says we cannot believe in Jesus (that it’s not our responsibility or choice), then how can anyone be saved under Calvinism?
Calvinism attacks the very heart of salvation and God’s character, which is an attack on the gospel.
And I think one of the biggest dangers of Calvinism is that it presents itself as the true gospel, as biblical truth. And so if people can tell there’s something wrong with it, they don’t end up just rejecting the Calvinism but they reject the Bible, God, the gospel. Because they think they are one and the same. (This has happened recently to several well-known Christians who left the faith. But if they had known that Calvinism was not biblical truth, maybe they would’ve know enough to reject the Calvinism but keep faith in God.)
I meant to add this too:
It’s because Calvinists are so deceptive, stealthily infiltrating churches and replacing truth of the Bible and leading many people astray, that I feel it’s all the more critical to take a very firm stance against Calvinism, to call it out for the false gospel it is. If we are overly gentle or tolerant or hazy about it, if we try to make it seem like our different versions can coexist just fine, then we’ll just be helping to confuse people, allowing Calvinism to sneak in and do its damage behind the scenes and in the long run.
I agree with Kevin Thompson from Beyond the Fundamentals who calls Calvinism a cancer that needs to be cut out from the church. We can be and should be nice and kind and tolerant towards the people, but not towards the theology itself. This is just my two cents on it. God bless, everyone.
I understand your view, Heather, and others like Kevin hold to that view also. But Calvinists still do invite each and every person to trust only in Jesus for salvation. Yes, they undermine that message later to harmful results in many, especially those who never were truly saved but thought they were.
Calvinism, imo, has a deformed view of the true gospel, but still the true gospel.
Calvinism’s Gospel – God has provided salvation sufficiently for all and planned for it to be “freely” and irresistibly accepted by some.
NT Gospel – God has provided salvation sufficiently for all and planned and provided for all to be sufficiently enabled to freely seek it.
The bigger problem, imo, is that Calvinism must have God as the author of evil for their idea of reprobation to work. And reprobation is the logical outcome of believing the divine plan was that only some were to benefit from the offer of salvation. The gospel, to them, is not good news for everyone. And they admit it.
But they are professing the true gospel, but it is a deformed view of it, like looking at your real self in a warped mirror. So we shouldn’t immediately think Calvinists are all unsaved. They would have to be if they believed in a false gospel, right?
I’m with Brian.
I have way too many Christ-honoring Calvinist friends to be as harsh as some of you. Leighton is very clear about this quite often in his videos.
I am not so sure that to believe Calvinism alleges a ‘false gospel’ makes all so-called Calvinists ‘unsaved’. I would say such thinking stems from adopting a forensic rather than relational view of salvation. There are many children of God (who will be ‘saved’ from wrath on the day of wrath) who can be and are confused, misled and deceived by false or less than accurate teaching on this or that. I dare say we all fall into that category to one degree or another. It is by challenging such faulty teaching that brothers can assist one another to use their critical thinking skills and escape such confusion.
Personally, I do not believe that we are saved by having the ‘correct’ theology. We may totally misunderstand the meaning of atonement, justification and salvation, yet have an abiding faith in the reality, goodness and trustworthiness of the living God. The danger is when our faulty beliefs lead to a false characterization of God which causes those who most need Him to not trust Him, due to ‘claims’ that just aren’t so.
I always resented the defaming characterization of God that Calvinism depicts, but was ‘deceived’ into thinking that perhaps I ‘just didn’t understand Calvinism’ and needed to at least grant that it ‘might’ be true, whether I ‘got it’ or not. This was only possible because I had complete trust in God, based on decades of walking with Him and looking to him for wisdom, guidance, strength, hope and peace. Thus, if this ‘doctrine’ was true, I firmly believed that it must have some way of being understood that did not negate the goodness and trustworthiness of God.
This, IMO, explains why so many believers can become Calvinists. They are relying on the grounding of their experienced walk with God, which unbelievers do not have the benefit of. So to proclaim to an unbeliever that God is partial, unloving and doesn’t ‘give a damn’ about many being cast into eternal darkness (or worse, unending torture) is a recipe for disaster. Who would trust such a being? Not I, had I been presented with such a picture before I actually knew God as my trustworthy Father, Savior and Helper.
2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Doctrines matter, because false doctrines will overthrow the faith of people in the church.
The recent years, the conduct of Christians have caused many to leave Christianity.
The spiritual abuse blogs have a lot of atheists that used to belong to calvinist churches.
The famous Dugger family that had a reality TV show has a lot of examples of the lifestyle forced upon them by the calvinist doctrines. It didn’t turn out well.
Things like that turns people off regarding becoming a Christian.
Now we have numerous Christians that were taught that Jesus was coming back in our lifetime… and when that didn’t happen, many left the church.
Doctrines cause this. So while the congregation of a calvinist church… maybe the are saved, maybe not.
Wheat and chaff in the same church.
Fromoverhere: I agree with you and Brian too, when it comes to Calvinists practicing their theology (i.e. that they believe like Calvinists but talk like non-Calvinists). And my thoughts on this have nothing to do with the personality/hearts of Calvinists, but with the bottom-line of the theology itself. I try to make sure to separate the people from the theology.
Yes, I’m sure there are smug, condescending, nasty Calvinists out there, but most of the Calvinist friends at the church we left are some of the nicest, most compassionate, most wonderful, most God-fearing people we know, true believers who are truly trying to live the most God-glorifying lives possible. (It was hard to leave them.)
But honestly, I think they would be horrified if they finally let themselves really see what the bottom-line of their theology is – such as that God was pleased to create most people to hate, that God is glorified by evil/sin (not just in spite of it, but by it) as much as He is by good, that God causes all evil, sin, unbelief but punishes people for it, etc. If they could really see the damage this does to God’s character and biblical truth and people’s faith, I think they would be horrified and wouldn’t be Calvinist anymore. I think most Calvinists don’t know enough about Calvinism to know they aren’t really Calvinists at all. They allow themselves to camp on the better-sounding, biblical-sounding upper layers of it, so that they don’t have to dig much deeper and uncover the bad stuff. This way, they don’t have to come face-to-face with the truly damaging, erroneous parts of Calvinism and can continue on in a certain level of ignorance. They live in a place of tension, cognitive dissonance, without really realizing it because they don’t allow themselves to peel back the layers and see where their theology inevitably leads.
Dealing with Calvinism is difficult because there’s so many layers to it, so many factors to consider and tease out. And in my opinions on it, I try to separate the people who are trapped in Calvinism from the theology itself (and from those doing the trapping), and I separate the average, ignorant, well-meaning Calvinist from the educated ones who understand/embrace the deeper layers of Calvinism. And within the theology, I try to separate the biblical surface layer from the deeper unbiblical layers. Not to mention that we have to separate what Calvinists SAY from what they really mean (what they hide and how they hide it).
[Such as Brian pointed out: “But Calvinists still do invite each and every person to trust only in Jesus for salvation.” I have no problem with them inviting each and every person to trust in Jesus. I think that’s great and biblical. I don’t have a problem with what they’re saying to the people. What I have a problem with is what they’re not saying, what they’re hiding, with how they present Calvinism and make it seem more biblical than it is. I have a problem with what’s going on within the Calvinist himself. He says that all need to believe in Jesus, knowing that what he means is that only the elect can believe, that there’s no hope for the non-elect because Jesus never even died for them, that the offer of salvation is a fake one when it comes to the non-elect, that the no one can choose to believe in Jesus but that it simply has to happen to them when and if God causes it to. Most people, thankfully, are ignorant of this stuff when hearing a Calvinist share the simple gospel. But the flip-side is that this ignorance is also what allows it to spread.]
There’s a whole lotta facets to consider – multiple angles to evaluate Calvinism on – which makes it easy for people to talk past each other (which I think we might be doing here) because we’re looking at different aspects/layers of it (maybe without even realizing it).
Anyway, I just want you to know that I agree with you and Brian on this – when it comes to the average Calvinist living out their theology (they talk like non-Calvinists, embracing/sharing the biblical layer without truly embracing/sharing the bad deeper layers). And so while I am harsh with the bottom-line of the theology itself (and with the educated, sly leaders who are trapping others into it), I try to be gentle and gracious with the average Calvinist who is just doing their best to honor God by being the good Calvinist they were told to be by the leaders. These people need to be helped out of Calvinism, like helping people escape a cult.
For me, seeing these good, God-fearing people trapped in Calvinism (and seeing how Calvinism spreads by stealth, cult-like tactics and deception) is why I take such a harsh stand against the theology itself. Not against the people, but against the bottom-line of Calvinist theology. I am less afraid of being too hard on Calvinism (the theology) and more afraid of being too soft on it (passively encouraging its spread by making it seem like it might not be such a bad theology after all). We slowly watched our church being taken over by it, and we realize that our soft stance on it (at the time) helped it spread.
For me now, warning people about Calvinism is like standing outside a burning building but seeing people (who don’t know it’s on fire) continue to enter because people on the upper floors are talking/tricking them into it. The more people tricked into entering (and the more sly the tactics those inside use to trick them), the louder I’m gonna yell, in no uncertain terms, about the dangers/errors/deception of it and about how they don’t have to enter. The more Calvinists spread Calvinism by saying “Calvinism is the gospel,” the more clear and firm we need to be that it’s not, that the Bible is the gospel but Calvinism is a corruption of it.
I’m not saying this to anyone here in particular, because I don’t think I need to tell Brian, fromoverhere, or Br.d. anything (you all know more about this stuff than I do – and I appreciate all you say and where your hearts are), but I’m just saying it to explain that I am not against the Calvinist people but I am firmly against the Calvinist theology itself. The damage of Calvinism does not show up right away, but it’s a poison that works slowly, eroding truth and faith over time. And any softness we have towards the theology itself gives it more time and room to grow, sucking more people in and entrenching them deeper.
Anyway, thanks for all you guys are doing here, and for being who you all are. It’s great to hear everyone’s different perspectives and ideas and angles (and even constructive criticisms). We need all the input we can get from others. Iron sharpens iron. And with this, I’ll be off-line for awhile. But please feel free to have the last word about this. Your opinions, even about if I’m wrong in my view or too harsh, are appreciated and valued and probably even accurate and necessary. God bless! 🙂
You are on target as usual, Heather. Calvinism uses scare tactics to intimidate and manipulate sincere believers, who genuinely do not want to ‘demand’ that God conform to their personal expectations. Thus, when presented with well-crafted arguments that seem convincing, the confused believer will often just submit to ‘the authority’ of a teacher, pastor or denomination. After all, if these ‘others’ whom they know and/or admire can so readily believe such things, surely they can’t be as bad as they seem.
It is essentially the ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ tactic, and it serves to silence many. It is often only the ‘ignorant’ and ‘innocent’, or people who are so used to applying their critical thinking skills that they cannot just check them at the door, who dare to speak out loud what everyone else is thinking privately: ‘The emperor is stark naked!’ or ‘Such a God would be downright Evil!’
TS00: “It is essentially the ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ tactic, and it serves to silence many. It is often only the ‘ignorant’ and ‘innocent’, or people who are so used to applying their critical thinking skills that they cannot just check them at the door, who dare to speak out loud what everyone else is thinking privately: ‘The emperor is stark naked!’ or ‘Such a God would be downright Evil!’”
Amen! I just wish that most of the people in our church were privately thinking what we were thinking about the Calvinism coming from the pulpit but were just too afraid to say it until someone else spoke up. But no, almost all sided with the pastor. We’ve been out of that church for almost 4 years now, and they’ve only gotten more Calvinist.
It totally baffles me how many good Christians let certain things the pastor said or wrote slip by unnoticed and unfought, things which are so damaging to God’s character, trustworthiness, and truth. Such as (paraphrased, in a nutshell):
“God commands us to spank our kids and that it has to hurt.” (No, he commands we disciple them, not spank them.)
“Humble Christians don’t question God’s sovereignty.” (I’m not questioning God’s sovereignty; I’m questioning the pastor’s twisted view of God’s sovereignty)
“If you disagree with me, you disagree with the Bible.” (So, YOU are the Bible now!?!)
“Before being regenerated, you are all dead people, like a dead body. Can a dead body do anything to help itself?
No, it can only lay there all dead. And just like a dead body, you are spiritually dead and can’t do anything either, not want God, seek God, or believe in God, unless and until God causes you to. Dead people can’t do anything.” (But apparently we can sin, reject God, disobey, and rebel. Anything except believe in Him. And since when is spiritual death, which is really about separation from God, the same as being physically dead? Spiritual death does not mean our brains don’t work.)
“I don’t do altar calls because I don’t want people thinking that walking the aisle saves them.” (No, he doesn’t want people thinking they have a choice about Jesus.)
“Election is like having 100 people on death row, but God – in His mercy, grace, and love – steps in to save 10 of them but lets the rest go to death row for the crimes they committed. Is God unfair to do this? Is He unjust? No! He didn’t have to save anyone because everyone deserved death. The very fact that He stepped in to save anyone at all, while passing over the rest, shows how gracious and loving He is.” (Sure, ignore the fact that, in Calvinism, those 100 men were only on death row in the first place because God predestined that they would commit those crimes and caused them to commit those crimes, giving them no chance/ability to choose otherwise. How is that justice!?!)
“You only have 3 choices when it comes to the ‘truth’ of predestination: ignore it, get angry about it, or accept it.” (Got it! No disagreement or other views allowed.)
“God does not love everyone, and He does not love everyone equally. He chose to save some but not others.” (Heart-breaking!)
“Depression is a sin.” (No help, no comfort, no compassion, just more shame for broken, hurting people. Being one of those broken, hurting people myself, I get so angry about this kind of flippant, foolish, harmful talk. Shame on him! I’ll side with the broken, hurting people any day before I’ll side with those who condemn them, shame them, and offer them no hope. As Calvinism does to the non-elect.)
“Christians like to think there’s an age of accountability where babies are saved if they die too early, but NO ONE gets a free pass, even babies. Everyone is born a rebellious sinner by nature and by choice, and they need to repent to be saved.” (His Mother’s Day sermon. Made me sick, and it was the last straw for me.)
“God ordains child abuse, for His glory, for your good, and to keep you humble.” (How could I not fight back fiercely against a theology like this!?!)
I could go on, but I’m sick enough.
I had so hoped that people would start to hear what we did, that our speaking out or leaving would embolden them to question his theology themselves, to think more critically about it and read the Bible more for themselves, and maybe to speak out and push back. But oh well. We did what we could, and when we could do no more, we had to jump ship and shake the dust from our feet. It’s sad. But I still have hope. Maybe someday they’ll realize the Emperor’s naked too.
Brian, I always appreciate your comments and I understand what you’re saying. And I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. For me, it comes down to the difference between Calvinist theology and Calvinism in practice.
I agree that, in practice, they do preach the basic gospel (believe in Jesus to be saved). But their theology distorts the gospel and God’s character so much (though they do their best to obscure it) that it changes it into something very different, once you’re in the know. (How much distortion does it take to make it wrong, false?)
Of course, the average person listening who doesn’t understand what Calvinism really teaches underneath what it says it believes won’t notice the distortions and errors, and so they will just hear the basic gospel message. Therefore, many people can be saved even when listening to a Calvinist, because they are unaware of the deeper, unbiblical Calvinist teachings. They hear “believe in Jesus to be saved” and they assume, rightly so, that they can choose to believe in Jesus to be saved.
But I think it’s that they are saved in spite of Calvinism’s true beliefs, not because of them. They are saved because they do not yet realize that Calvinism’s true belief is that we can’t choose to believe in Jesus. Calvinists believe like Calvinists but talk like non-Calvinists.
But if Calvinists were to be fully honest about their theology – if, when sharing the gospel, they were to say something more like “You need to believe in Jesus to be saved but you have no ability to choose to believe, so don’t even try because God makes that decision for us.” – then I doubt anyone would choose to believe in Jesus, because they were told they couldn’t.
That’s what I meant by what I said earlier, that we can’t really be saved under Calvinist theology since Calvinism denies our ability to choose to do the one thing God said we need to do to be saved.
But in practice, since many Calvinists don’t present Calvinism’s beliefs honestly (they present the biblical surface layer that we can all agree on), many people can be saved when listening to a Calvinist share the gospel. But this is only because Calvinists hide the bad parts, the parts that contradict the plain teaching of Scripture and that ruin the gospel and God’s character. Also, I would add that I think many Calvinists are saved because they were saved before converting to Calvinism. But once again, saved in spite of Calvinism, not because of it.
To me, even if the surface stuff they say sounds biblical, the dangers of the deeper, hidden parts of Calvinism and the sly ways it twists and distorts Scripture and God’s character and slips into churches is so damaging to biblical truth that it’s worth strongly fighting against. I think the good-sounding surface stuff is just a way to slip the bad stuff in unnoticed.
Thanks for your reply, Brian. I always learn a lot from you. And I’m glad you pointed it out, because I do think there is a difference between Calvinist theology and how it’s lived out/presented. And this difference allows for the possibility for people to be saved when listening to a Calvinist share the simple gospel message. God bless! 🙂
I might sum up my reply like this: On the surface layer, Calvinism sounds biblical. But underneath the surface, it’s not. And the deeper unbiblical layer ultimately negates the surface biblical layer. But when hearing only the surface layer, people can be saved.
But it does get to the point of, “I’m elect and you are no’ot…nener, nener, nener attitude. At least with the hard liners. Dontcha think?
The believer, who already has an established, experienced faith in the Living God can often embrace seriously faulty thinking without threat to his faith. Thanks be to God, as all of us embrace faulty thinking to one degree or another! As you stated, very often the believers who are slowly, subtly indoctrinated with the ‘Doctrines of Grace’, first of all, only hear the ‘words’ of the Calvinist ‘gospel’, which do not reveal the underlying premises.
This is very similar to the way Secret Societies work, with the inductee only being granted greater understanding as they prove themselves able and trustworthy. Thus, some Freemasons go to their grave thinking their ‘society’ was all about serving the community, while those who advanced to the higher degrees learn the ‘hidden secrets’ not revealed to all members, and certainly not to outsiders.
When I finally ‘woke up’ from the trance I had been put under, I would be literally biting my tongue as I heard my pastor saying things that I considered pure blasphemy – while those around me were calmly, smilingly nodding their heads in agreement. They did not know the ‘unspoken’ definitions of the words being used, thus when they heard ‘God so loved the world’ they thought he was teaching that God loves all men. Most never learn any different, until and unless they become sufficiently brainwashed that they can block out the contradictions and cognitive dissonance.
There is often no real threat to such believers faith, as they still have genuine trust in the Living God, even if they have been (wrongly) convinced to ‘trust’ things that are not true or trustworthy. The greater danger is for those who do not yet know the Living God, who have nothing to ground themselves with, and who either grasp on their own or hear from others the unavoidable ramifications of ‘predestination’ and ‘TULIP’.
Unlike believers, who simply chalk the ‘hard things’ up to ‘mystery’, the non-believer sees the undeniable reality that this God of Calvinism is cruel, deceptive and utterly untrustworthy. No one in their right mind would leave their child with a human who acted as this ‘god’ was claimed to do, deliberately leaving some children, as my pastor eventually taught, to perish in an orphanage fire when He could easily have rescued them all. Perish the thought. Perish the theology.
Very well said, TS00. Good to hear from you again. We have the same kind of passion about this issue and its dangers. I think you’re insightful and right about Calvinism being like a secret society with “the inductee only being granted greater understanding as they prove themselves able and trustworthy.” I’ve read a bunch of Calvinist pastors who advise (train) new pastors to be very careful and selective about what they say and how they say it and to not use “labels like Calvinist.” They say the uneducated congregation won’t understand (I’ve seen them call the congregation “biblically illiterate” for not grasping Calvinism), that it will just unnecessarily confuse and alarm them. But of course, it’s really that they know it will repel people or get pushback. They are trained to hide/obscure their Calvinism. Why? (Are they afraid they might alter God’s predestined plans somehow with what they say or how/when they say it? It’s ironic and contradicts their own theology.)
And sadly, the people don’t realize they are being very slowly, deliberately, strategically manipulated and reeled into Calvinism. This is one reason why I push back so hard against it. Softness and tolerance just won’t cut it, not when a theology is being pushed so stealthily, strategically, deceptively, and forcefully. As Kevin Thompson says, Calvinists will just use our “niceness” against us. (Or some word like that.)
And I totally relate to having the people around me at church nod in agreement to the very things I found so disturbing. It was like they were trying to show “Even if what the pastor is saying sounds terrible, look how humble I am to submit myself to God’s ‘sovereignty’.” It’s like peer pressure to fit in, to show you’re on the pastor’s side (without thinking through to ramifications – the logical ends – of what the pastor is teaching). And everyone on the outside “doesn’t get it” or they are “unhumble Christians who are fighting God’s sovereignty and trying to steal His glory.”
I agree that “They did not know the ‘unspoken’ definitions of the words being used, thus when they heard ‘God so loved the world’ they thought he was teaching that God loves all men.” For me and my husband, we couldn’t even listen to the pastor’s good sermons anymore because we knew what he really meant by the things he said. And it was even more disturbing to know that he was deliberately obscuring what he really meant, only telling half the story, strategically revealing only the biblical part that people could agree with while hiding the deeper unbiblical stuff. The biblical layer (no matter how good and right it sounded) was just a cover for the deeper unbiblical layer and a way to slip past their radar, to entrench himself deeper, reeling people in bit by bit with as little alarm or pushback as possible.
Most of the church we left are great people who are still totally devoted to God. They’ve just allowed a bad theology (which horribly disfigures God and His Word and destroys Jesus’s sacrificial death) to supplant the simple, beautiful, saving truths of the Bible. Like you said, they have been trained to “simply chalk the ‘hard things’ up to ‘mystery’.” And so they allow this theology to flourish, convinced that the pastor must know what he’s talking about because he’s so educated, intelligent, and bold. Plus, he’s been to Israel and knows Greek and Hebrew, right? And so he can’t be wrong. But we lowly people in the congregation are not that educated and so we just have to trust him, even when it doesn’t make sense or sets off alarm bells. The problem can’t be with his theology; it must be with us! (I’ve read Calvinist pastors say this too, that if we have problems with what they’re saying then it’s because we’re prideful or are having an emotional reaction to things we don’t like hearing. They make it seem like WE are the problem, not their theology. So much manipulation going on with getting Calvinism into churches.)
“The non-believer sees the undeniable reality that this God of Calvinism is cruel, deceptive and utterly untrustworthy.” This is why I can’t be less than harsh with this theology. The damage it does to God’s character and His Word – and the effect it has on unbelievers (and on believers who get discouraged with their Calvinist god and who “leave the faith” because of it) – is so disturbing and sad that I cannot be more gentle about it. Too much is on the line. And Calvinism is spreading fast and hard, leaving a trail of damage in its wake. I can be gentle with the people, but not the theology. Not with the overall damage it does to the truth. “Perish the thought. Perish the theology.”
How much Calvinism can we allow/tolerate in our churches if Satan is behind it? (And I’m sure there’s people who think he’s not behind it. But if he’s not, then who is?) If Satan is behind deception, confusion, attacks on God’s character, and subtle (and not so subtle) twists on God’s Word, then how much can we tolerate and let slide, especially when the people are nice, God-fearing people who mean well? I’m asking seriously, not rhetorically, because I’ve had to contemplate this before when we were wondering whether we could continue at our church or not. The people were great, but the Calvinism was growing and getting more out in the open. And what if we found a new church that was Calvinist but didn’t push it as hard? Could we tolerate that? It’s a difficult, personal decision for people, especially now that Calvinism is taking over more churches.
Personally, what matters to me more is not how nice, God-fearing, and well-meaning the people are, but whether or not they preach the Bible correctly. (When I stand before God, I want to know that I supported a church that didn’t spread unbiblical views of Him, His Word, and salvation. Of course, we all have errors in our views to some degree, but when it comes to God’s character, His Word, and salvation, it hits at the very heart of the Bible, the gospel.) There are plenty of nice, God-fearing people who mean well in false religions and cults. And don’t even Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons claim that we need faith in Jesus to be saved? Would we say they have a correct gospel just because they say this too?
I think there’s more to having a correct gospel than the mere sentence “believe in Jesus to be saved.” I think it’s the extras – the qualifiers, adjustments, deeper layers underneath that sentence, the foundation it’s built on – that determine whether you have a correct gospel or not. How much error should be allowed before we label something a false gospel? Of course, we wouldn’t label the sentence “believe in Jesus to be saved” a false gospel, but at what point do we label a theology as false if it gets that sentence right but so much else wrong (especially when what they get wrong changes the understanding of “believe in Jesus to be saved”)?
Of course, I’m not saying any non-Calvinist here supports or encourages the spread of Calvinism. Clearly, we are all taking a stand against it. I am simply explaining why I so strongly push back against it, why I am so passionate about it. I think the lies that are underneath the biblical surface of Calvinism far outweigh any good points they make. They might get “believe in Jesus to be saved” right, but they add so many unbiblical qualifiers (they have an unbiblical foundation) that it’s a completely different message than what the Bible says (and a completely different God). And if we don’t clearly and firmly expose them and push back, then their use of “believe in Jesus to be saved” will get them into more and more churches, because the people don’t yet know what’s underneath the top, biblical layer. And they won’t know until it’s too late.
It was good to hear from you, TS00. Thanks for sharing your insights. I always enjoy hearing from you. God bless.
And for the record, to no one in particular, I think it’s good to have people of different temperaments pushing back against Calvinism in different ways, to different degrees. There’s no one right way to do it. We need the gentler types (the Leighton Flowers’s) and the more forceful types (the Kevin Thompson’s). Different styles and temperaments reach different people. But we’re all working toward the same goal. God bless, you all.
Heather I love your heart as well as you comments (you too Brian). You guys should get together and compile a book on the Calvinist Church takeovers and how to deal with this. I’ll help compiling and publishing!
As a confirmation to much of what you Heather write, here’s a testimony:
I attend a Calvinist takeover church. It’s perhaps the S. Baptist poster child church startup of the past decade. Storyline Church was started as a new church plant here in the Denver area about 9 years ago. This past Easter Sunday’s attendance was estimated at over 5,000. My wife and I have attended our church from its origin. Our first pastor was a delightful man, who when I quizzed him over a coffee told me he was 3.5 point (confused) Calvinist. I could work with that ; ) Most sermon’s and teachings leaned toward a God provides for all theology although some Calvinism would creep in. My wife and I jumped in to serve, preparing all communion services and hosting a small group at our home as well as other volunteer positions.
A lead pastor change occurred almost 3 years ago. Our new pastor is a full blown Calvinist, schooled under Mohler and tutored under Chandler. Since this takeover, my wife and I have been informed we are no longer welcomed to take communion due to the fact that we have held to a spirit led conviction that we were not to sign a “covenant” document that codified/regulated our Christian walk with a set of 9 commandment rules. We simply desired to live our walk under a HS directed law of love and not a law of man. Our small group hosted in our house was soon shut down from any new members as our group leader also objected to the Church’s communion policy. I was then removed from the church’s website group assistant leadership role.
Taking the elders and pastor out to lunch to plead for a change had no affect. Instead they now will not affirm they are even my pastor nor elders. You see that would then be affirming that I am a member of this local body of Christ. This conflicts with their belief that only the covenant signed are true and genuine members. I know this is not Calvinism but I think the foolishness of it all leaks over from this horrid doctrine.
Sunday morning services hold occasional Calvinism slipped into sermons with quotes from Luther, Calvin and other like minded. Teaching on Romans 8 we were informed of our predestined salvation before creation through the “effectual call” only to be taught in a Romans 9 sermon the following week that chapter 9 was not about Calvinism. You see, John Calvin was not around at the time of Paul’s writing : ) The sermon advised that the main point of Romans 9 was that God is more gracious than you could ever imagine. Pastor simply did not want to expose his full on Calvinism to the masses. (I was tempted to advise him after service that I could imagine 99% or even 100% getting the “effectual call” rather than what looks to be about 10% of society).
When I advised our pastor and elders that our small group lead had covid and requested on one of the elders take over to discuss the Romans 9 sermon, They declined. I then advised I would run the small group and wrote out in raw simple terms what I understood our elders to hold to regarding Calvinism. I also advised that God’s eternal secret decree had me repulsed by the teaching. I received no theological corrections but instead was told not to bring up Calvinism to the group. This would be an inappropriate setting and divisive to do this. Rather I should encouraged folks to take the nightly $350 “Institutes” course when one will learn deep theology. It is here that all attendees are encouraged to read JC’s Institutes and other fine literature.
It’s all a mess yet we stay to lovingly to contend as close family and friends had early on followed us to this fellowship.
Larry, Thank you. And wow, you’ve got a more aggressive Calvinist pastor than we had. (Ours was a huge MacArthur fan.) I think you are very wise not to sign a covenant like that. Something like that is more about people being accountable to a human leader (putting more power in a human leader’s hands) than accountable to God. I have a big problem with legalistic churches making rules for people that God Himself doesn’t make.
It blows my mind that they won’t allow you take communion over that. Nowhere in Scripture do I see that precedent. Is your church an Acts 29 or a 9marks church? According to my research, their churches (not all, of course, but in general) are known for their strict rules and disciplinary measures, going above and beyond Scripture. And I hear they discipline really harshly too if any member questions them, speaks against them, or tries to leave. They will even try to block you from joining a new church or convince you that you must get their approval first. It’s really messed up. Good thing you didn’t sign that covenant.
The person who runs the website “The Wartburg Watch” is really against signing church covenants/contracts because of the authority it gives the church over you and problems it can cause later. That’s not what church is supposed to be. I’m sorry you had to go through that. But I admire your willingness to stick around and be a light in a dark place. If you guys had trouble there, you can be sure others have too. It will be good for them to know your story, to have someone there who are help them see more clearly.
Our pastor (who took over the church after we had been there about 13 years) did an 8 or 9 month long series on Romans. That’s when he brought out the big Calvinist guns (after dripping Calvinism in slowly for the first year), and we knew for sure that we were going to have trouble there.
He too tried the “God is so gracious” trick. His tactic was to preach this: “The question isn’t ‘Why did God predestine people to hell,’ but the real question is ‘Why did God choose to save anyone at all when we are all depraved sinners who deserve hell?’ This just shows how gracious He is. He didn’t have to save anyone but he did.”
Nice deflection, huh? “Pay no attention to the multitudes God predestined to burn, just celebrate that God chose a few people to save.” It made me sick, but it made others nod their heads in agreement and shout out “Amen.” We were all in the same room but worlds apart.
We tried to stick it out (we got to 6 years) hoping that we could reach the elders. We would have been okay staying long term if we could all talk about this issue openly. But, alas, it was not to be. They squashed opposing voices, got more forceful about Calvinism from the pulpit, and spread it through small group Wayne Grudem studies and through weekly sermon-based group meetings (they kept tabs on who attended and published an official list of questions your group would discuss, full of Calvinist bias, as if there could be no other views on it).
And the pastor preached several times that when it comes to predestination (his view on it), the only possible responses we could have to it are to “ignore it, get angry about it, or accept it.” No disagreement allowed. He made it clear that if we disagreed with him, we were disagreeing with God, with the Bible. It was so hard to last the 6 years. My faith was suffocating, dying. I was angry all the time and pulling back from everyone.
It was after the church deleted a perfectly respectful comment I left on the church blog where I disagreed with the pastor’s view on predestination, providing Bible verses to back me up, that we knew it was time to go, that we couldn’t do any good there, that it was time to shake the dust from our feet. (Plus, we didn’t want our kids growing up under that anymore.)
We hoped then that maybe our leaving (we had been active members there for 20 years) would open other people’s eyes to the fact that there might be a problem, that they might come to us and ask some questions. But by then it was too late. Most people had gotten sucked into Calvinism deeper over the 6 years through the Grudem studies and group meetings, and they weren’t going to question the pastor. And to them, we probably were just outing ourselves as one of the “unhumble Christians who fight God’s sovereignty and steal His glory,” as the pastor regularly preached about those who don’t see things his way. Those weren’t his exact words, but it was what he was teaching in so many words. There were lots of subtle, manipulative comments like that from the pulpit before he even revealed his Calvinist views, preemptive efforts to make people not want to disagree with whatever he would teach later.
Anyway, God bless you, Larry, for all you’ve been through and for your heart and your efforts to help the people in your church. May He use you to be a light to others when they are ready to find a way out of Calvinism (and God-willing it’s before it suffocates their faith – I know how that feels). 🙂
br.d
Make that pastor also sign a covenant that you create.
He will sign a covenant that if he ever uses misleading language – he will have to leave the church.
If he is a Calvinist – he cannot help himself – he will have to use misleading language
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Make him swallow his own medicine!
That will fix his goose!! :-]
Br.d.: “Make that pastor also sign a covenant that you create. He will sign a covenant that if he ever uses misleading language – he will have to leave the church.”
Oh, that’s a good, interesting idea! And it’s a catch-22, because if he signs it, he’ll get caught … but if he refuses to sign it, he’s essentially admitting that he’s going to use (and knows he uses) misleading language. Interesting bind! I like it.
Heather,
I’ve been trying to follow along with posts when I’m able and i agree with you, because i see “calvinism” as a snare which is very dangerous not only for the church, but for it’s cloud of witness to believers and unbelievers alike in my opinion. I dislike calvinism extremely and though i realize we don’t wrestle against flesh and blood i still have become more bold in my stance, hopefully not in a snarky way –though boldness can appear this way at times, but love should never be silent!!!
And;
2 Corinthians 5:11 NASB95 — Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
‐‐Honestly I hope many don’t understand the implications of the system, but if they do then ugh how could they trust Him when His yes would be yes and no simultaneously…. I TRUST they are wrong and have been since this twisting infiltrated the church. Many seem to think themselves to be wiser with this knowledge of God though it seems they want to clearly define how God works within His creation… Also they seem in my opion to change Jesus and the simplicity in Him.
Romans 1:22 NKJV — Professing to be wise, they became fools,
2 Corinthians 11:3 NKJV — But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
So sadly it does appear that many in the church (all around the world ) hold to such a strong divisional stance, and this sectarianism goes all the way back to what Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 3 yet many act like their stance is the superior stance.. but we’re also told not to forget the simplicity in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3 NKJV — But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Really it seems to be everywhere, and we need to pay attention (be on guard) and warn others. Not all have faith.
2 Timothy 4:2 NKJV — Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
Two words continue to give me hope… convince and persuade in theistic determinism these words are truly pointless.. i find any “ism” especially calvinism to be a clever beast, because they appear to be the most theologically sound and wide spread. Like gangrene or cancer🥺 Thank you for speaking up and not trusting man above God blessings to you🌻
Thank you, Reggie. It’s good to hear from you. And I like your description of Calvinism as a “clever beast”. 🙂
God bless. And thank you for speaking against the beast too.
(I tried sending this once but my computer froze, hope you don’t get double if I resend it.)
Ed, My husband and I are repelled by how some of the Calvinist hard-liners can be (the James Whites and MacArthurs and Sprouls, etc.). They ooze smugness and condescension and pride. (And to be fair, I probably seem that way to Calvinists because of my bluntness and strong stances.) We are baffled that anyone watching them would be turned on to Calvinism instead of turned off.
But as I said above, many of the average, pew-sitting Calvinists are wonderful, humble people who would never dare to think of themselves so highly or pridefully. But sadly, the Calvinists leaders have used the people’s desire to be humble and God-glorifying against them, suckering them into Calvinism by convincing them that Calvinism is the most humble, God-glorifying theology there is because they submit themselves to God’s “sovereignty” (as Calvinism defines it).
[When we left our church, we reached out to a friend who leaned Arminian to share our concerns about the Calvinist theology that was taking over the church, to warn him to be alert and discerning. But he was taking a Wayne Grudem class with the pastor and replied something like, “I want to be humble enough to submit myself to biblical truth, no matter where I find it and even if I don’t like how it sounds. I don’t want my pride to prevent me from embracing biblical truth.” To us, it sounded like the effect of the pastor’s manipulation, convincing him that good, humble Christians don’t fight against Calvinism, that they submit themselves to it even if it sounds bad. We knew then that our friend was a goner and that there was no point in pursuing it further. Until and unless he himself saw what we saw.]
Anyway, I almost wish that all Calvinist leaders and teachers were as smug and condescending (and as forward about the deeper, bad parts of Calvinist theology) as the severe hard-liners. I think a lot less people would be enchanted into it if this was the case. God bless!
br.d , what do you think about this article https://www.generationword.com/notes/calvinism/Refuting%20Calvinism-total%20depravity.htm
Some people have said that Bible verses in the Old & New Testaments which seem to imply human beings have Free Will , and the Freedom to Choose, verses that tell humans to “Choose” and verses with the word “if” that those verses don’t Refute Calvinism because those verses are from a Human Perspective, yet from God’s Perspective, he is Totally Sovereign and Everything is Predestined
Which comes first are
Certain people predestined to become Christians
Or do some people freely choose to become Christians and then become Predestined, which comes first , have you seen any more of the
Hondo Calvinism YouTube videos
@hondotheology
Reformed Theology: Turn or burn, sinners
Hello Jeff
What is critical to recognize is – the “T” in Calvinism’s TULIP functions as a lie of omission.
A lie of omission is communication designed to mislead – by omitting critical facts – which if NOT omitted would NOT mislead.
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In Calvinism’s case – the critical fact that is being strategically omitted – is that the underlying doctrine stipulates – the state of nature (including every man’s nature) at every nano-second in time – is 100% meticulously predestined at the foundation of the world.
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Thus – the state of every man’s nature – at every nano-second in time – cannot possibly be – anything other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
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Man is never granted any SAY or any CONTROL in the matter of that which is FIXED by infallible decree before man is created.
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Thus – whatever the state of any man’s nature may be at any nano-second in time – is definitely not determined by man.
The state of man’s nature – at every nano-second in time – is determined solely and exclusively by an infallible decree.
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This allows us to see – the Calvinist uses the “T” in his TULIP to assert a FALSEHOOD.
That FALSEHOOD – is to attribute mans abilities or inabilities – as well as man’s eternal destiny – to man’s nature.
But that is a denial of the doctrine of decrees.
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The TRUTH is – the state of man’s nature at every nano-second in time – and man’s eternal destiny – are both solely and exclusively established by an infallible decree – which man has no say in the matter of – and no control over.
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So given Calvinism’s underlying doctrine – you should be able to recognize – the “T” in Calvinism’s TULIP functions as a lie of omission which is strategically used to obfuscate the underlying doctrine – which the Calvinist knows the average Bible readers will reject.
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Let me know if you are having trouble seeing this.
Your friend
br.d
Jeff
do some people freely choose to become Christians…..
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br.d
What you are describing here – is technically called CONTRARY CHOICE which is defined as a choice between 2 CONTRARY OPTIONS.
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What you need to understand is – Calvinism’s doctrine of decrees stipulates that CONTRARY OPTIONS are never granted to creation.
And thus CONTRARY OPTIONS are never granted to man.
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Follow the steps here closely:
1) In Calvinism – everything without exceptions that happens within creation is established by a decree
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2) Every decree entails that which WILL be granted – vs – that which WILL NOT be granted
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Example 1:
If it is decreed that Calvinist_X will be born on a Monday
Then Calvinist_X being born on Monday WILL be granted to Calvinist_X
Thus – being born on any day other than Monday WILL NOT be granted to Calvinist_X
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Example 2:
If it is decreed that Calvinist_X will perform Sin_X at TIME-T WILL be granted to Calvinist_X
NOT performing Sin_X at TIME_T WILL NOT be granted to Calvinist_X
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Both example 1 and example 2 are simply examples – for EVERY DECREE in Calvinism’s doctrine of decrees.
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So what you should be able to recognize from this – is that there are never CONTRARY OPTIONS available to man in Calvinism – simply because no option that is CONTRARY to the decree – is granted existence.
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Therefore – in Calvinism – there is no such thing as man being granted a choice between “Believe” and “NOT Believe”
In Calvinism – that choice was made by Calvin’s god – before that man was created.
Whatever that man will believe – is FIXED by infallible decree before that man is created.
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For every human event – and every human impulse – there is never granted more than ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION
And man is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of what that option will be.
And no ability to refrain.
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Since that is the case in Calvinism – then you need to realize that CHOICE as NORMAL people understand it – does not exist in Calvinism.
Jeff, I know you didn’t ask my opinion on this, but I’ll share it anyway:
You said that some people say that “… those verses don’t Refute Calvinism because those verses are from a Human Perspective, yet from God’s Perspective, he is Totally Sovereign and Everything is Predestined.”
If they can find a verse that says this – that “God predestined everything” – then I’ll start to consider their views more.
But the truth is that Calvinists can’t find verses that clearly state any of their foundational Calvinist beliefs. They cannot find verses that clearly say things like “God does not love all sinners equally” … “Jesus died only for the elect” … “God predestined everything, even predestining some people to hell” … “God has to make us seek Him” … “Sovereign means preplanning/controlling everything” … “Being spiritually dead means being brain dead” … “Mankind lost their free-will, their right to make decisions, after Adam and Eve sinned” … “You cannot choose to believe in Jesus. God does not give us a real choice, but He makes our choice for us” … “God has two Wills that contradict each other, one that wants all to be saved and one that predestines most people for hell” … “God has two different kinds of love for people, one that saves some people and one that just gives food and sunshine to those who are predestined to hell” … “God has two different kinds of calls He gives people, one for the elect that they can’t resist and one for the non-elect that they must resist” … “The Holy Spirit regenerates the elect to make them believe, to make them put their faith in Jesus” … “God preplans/causes sin but punishes us for it” … “Only the elect have the ability to be believe and be saved” … “God preplans/causes sin for His glory” [God can and does work our sins into His plans, for His purposes and glory – and He can and does put people in situations that force them to make their decision about if they will sin or not, to expose the sin that’s in their hearts – but He does not put the sin in their hearts or cause them to be wicked or preplan/cause them to sin.] … “If there was one piece of dust God didn’t control, then He wouldn’t be God”, etc.
Not to mention that their phrases “total inability” (they call it ‘depravity’ but they mean ‘inability’) and “unconditional election” and “limited atonement” and “irresistible grace” are nowhere in the Bible.
Should it not bother us that none of these essential Calvinist ideas are clearly laid out in any verse in the Bible? That they have to fabricate support for these ideas by cobbling together other verses taken out of context and reinterpreted through a Calvinist lens?
Calvinists cannot find verses that clearly teach their theology (try and look for them), and so to support their beliefs, they have to take verses out of context, apply multiple layers to verses, change definitions of words, mash unrelated verses together, read into verses things that aren’t there, and shame and manipulate people into not questioning them.
Calvinism replaces what God clearly, plainly, repeatedly said with their ideas of what He meant to say, things that He didn’t clearly and plainly say anywhere. All because they won’t take Scripture at face value, in the plain, commonsense, “in context” way it was meant to be taken. And this should be evident in the fact that it takes months of study with Calvinist pastors and Calvinist indoctrination books to figure out what God supposedly “meant to say” underneath what He actually said (and in contradiction to what He actually said). And even then, at the end of it all, Calvinists have to resort to things like “who are you to question God?” and “We can’t understand it, so we just have to accept it” to try to explain away the contradictions they cannot resolve, to trick you into accepting their absurd, disturbing ideas. Be wary of any theology system that works like that. That is far more cult-like than biblical.
And about your question ” are certain people predestined to become Christians or do some people freely choose to become Christians and then become Predestined, which comes first?”
I’d say that salvation is truly offered to and available for all (it doesn’t mean all people have the same amount of access/ease in being able to hear the Word and believe, especially considering those raised in false religions or atheist homes). But salvation is offered to all, but God leaves it up to us to accept or reject it.
But biblically, predestination has to do with what happens to someone once they become a believer, not with who will believe. Whoever believes – whoever chooses to be “in Christ” – will get an inheritance, be in heaven, have their bodies redeemed, bring Christ glory, and will reach glory in the end, etc. The destination of the path of a believer is what’s been predestined, not whether or not you become a believer (as Calvinists think). I illustrate it this way:
God has created two buses: one to heaven and one to hell. The destination of each bus is determined, but God does not decide who gets one which bus. He leaves that up to us. Everyone and anyone can get on the bus to heaven (Jesus paid the price for all our sins to buy us all a ticket to heaven), but it’s up to us to do so. (And of course, we are all on the bus to hell by default, until and unless we choose to board the bus to heaven.) So God lets us choose which bus to get on. And once we get on the bus to heaven, we will inevitably be headed toward where it’s been predestined by God to go.
Just some thoughts on this. Good questions. God bless.
br.d & Heather , Thanks for responding, I wish God made the Bible easier to understand, comprehend and interpret
On the website gbcob.org I found this long pdf article headlined
“Exposing “Calvinism Exposed” A Biblical Response to Ron Vietti and Jim Crews” by Steve Swartz ,
Hello Jeff and I hope this finds you well
The Bible really isn’t all that difficult to understand – once you know content it contains.
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You obviously know – the authors of scripture never intended it to be a text-book on physics or philosophy
In such case – it is not a text-book Determinism
However – Determinism – is what Calvinism is founded on.
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Consequently – the Calvinist has to *HUNT* to find what he is looking for within the text.
That is what we call “Reformed Hermeneutics”
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N.T. Wright – for example – jokingly calls Romans chapter 9 – the Calvinists “HAPPY HUNTING GROUND”
In other words – the Calvinist has to go “HUNTING” in order to find what is looking for within the text.
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But the Calvinist does not want you to know that that what he is doing with the text.
He wants to convince himself – and convince you – the he is simply going to the text – to see what it says
he wants to convince himself – and convince you – that Determinism (EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM) is the foundational underlying principle – for every verse within scripture.
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The Calvinist follows that process – just exactly the same way the Jehovah’s Witness follow it
Except the Jehovah’s Witness is not looking for Determinism – he is looking for something else.
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Never the less – the Jehovah’s Witness follows the same exact process for how he uses scripture.
He uses scripture – not to see what is actually there.
He CO-OPTS scripture to make if affirm what he is looking for.
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The Mormon follows the same process in how he uses scripture
The Christian Science follows the same process in how he uses scripture.
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None of them are going to acknowledge that is what they are doing with scripture
They are all going to argue and insist that they simply pick up the Bible and read what it clearly says.
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You don’t have to follow their process
And it would be to your advantage of you don’t :-]
br.d & Heather , I found this Quote and article online :
“Charles Spurgeon: “Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.”
JULY 4, 2014 / DREW MERY
If there is any doubt in anyone’s mind as to whether or not the so-called “Prince of preachers” was a Calvinist, let the following quotation, taken from his sermon on 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 (“Christ Crucified”), settle it in your minds–Spurgeon was most definitely a Calvinist.
And I have my own private opinion, that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor, I think, can we preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the peculiar redemption which Christ made for his elect and chosen people; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation, after having believed. Such a gospel I abhor. The gospel of the Bible is not such a gospel as that. We preach Christ and him crucified in a different fashion, and to all gainsayers we reply, ‘We have not so learned Christ.’ [Spurgeon’s Sermons, vol. I (Baker Books, reprinted 2007), 88-89.]
How should we respond
Hi Jeff, I don’t care if he is the “prince of preachers,” Spurgeon is wrong. Calvinists put far too much stock in what certain men say, “giants of the faith,” as if they couldn’t be wrong. They turn these men’s opinions into gospel, creeds, confessions, doctrines, etc.
To break it down, “justification by faith without works” is correct. But the Calvinist’s definitions of “faith” and “works” are so wrong that it makes the Calvinist use of this phrase wrong. The believe faith is something God injects into the elect, not simply believing in Jesus/committing to Him. And they think that “believing in Jesus” is a “working for salvation” thing.
But God Himself differentiates “belief/faith” from the kind of actions people do to try to earn salvation: Romans 4:3-6: “‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to a man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”
In God’s eyes, “believing in/trusting God” is not considered a “working to earn salvation” kind of works. God contrasts Abraham’s belief/trust with those who “work” for their justification and righteousness. He’s saying that believing and trusting are different than the other kinds of “works” people do to try to earn their way with Him.
And not only that, but God Himself says that believing is the one “work” we must do to be saved, our responsibility: “Then they asked him, ‘What must we do to do the works God requires?’ Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent [Jesus].'” (John 6:28-29)
But Calvinists say “Well, we can’t work our way to heaven, and belief is a work, so we can’t believe, so God has to do it for us.” They have wrongly decided that belief is a work, thereby changing the whole concept of salvation and the gospel. (And if we say that we think God allows us to choose to believe or not believe, they accuse us of taking credit for our salvation, instead of giving the glory to God. It’s all manipulation and word games.)
Additionally, they have wrong definitions/understandings of sovereignty, grace, elect, love (God’s), etc. Therefore, while some of what they say might sound good on the surface, it’s all unbiblical rot underneath, completely different than the Bible’s plain, easily-understood, commonsense message.
Also, I find it ironic that Spurgeon cannot comprehend a gospel that would “suffer the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation, after having believed,” but he’s okay with the idea of a Calvinist gospel that suffers the majority of people to burn in the fires of damnation for the sins and unbelief God caused them to do, that they had no choice about, no control over, and that they couldn’t change. Such a gospel I abhor!
And let’s not forget Calvin’s evanescent grace. I wonder what Spurgeon would say about the idea that God sometimes gives non-elect people a fake, temporary faith that makes them feel saved for a little while (so much so that they don’t know there’s a difference between them and the elect), just so that He can abandon them, smite them with greater blindness. and punish them harder in hell.
From Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 2, Section 11 (emphasis added):”I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the REPROBATE, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election; and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that THE REPROBATE ARE SOMETIMES AFFECTED IN A WAY SO SIMILAR TO THE ELECT, THAT EVEN IN THEIR OWN JUDGMENT THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a TEMPORARY FAITH, IS ASCRIBED TO THEM. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, THE BETTER TO CONVICT THEM, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption.”
And from his Book 3, Chapter 24, Section 8: “… there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, EVEN THOSE FOR WHOM HE DESIGNS THE CALL TO BE A SAVOR OF DEATH, and the ground of a SEVERER CONDEMNATION. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. SOMETIMES, HOWEVER, HE COMMUNICATES IT ALSO TO THOSE WHOM HE ENLIGHTENS ONLY FOR A TIME, AND WHOM AFTERWARDS, IN JUST PUNISHMENT FOR THEIR INGRATITUDE, HE ABANDONES AND SMITES WITH GREATER BLINDNESS.”
Calvin is saying that Calvi-god gives some non-elect people (reprobates) a fake, temporary call/grace/faith (evanescent grace) to trick them into thinking that they are one of the elect, that they are securely saved. And this feeling is so real that they can’t tell a difference. But eventually this “grace/faith” fades, proving that they were never elect to begin with. And Calvi-god does this – gives them a temporary faith that they later reject (but don’t forget that Calvi-god made them reject it) – to “better convict them,” to make their punishment more justified, to have more reason to abandon them in hell and smite them with greater blindness. (As if they deserved it. And as if it wasn’t enough to just predestine them to hell for his pleasure and glory, with no chance to be saved. Calvinism’s god is a twisted, sick god!)
How’s that for Calvinism’s gospel and the assurance of salvation!
(And I would love to see if a Calvinist can find one verse – just one – that plainly, clearly teaches this garbage!)
I wonder what Spurgeon would say about that. So he’s not okay with the idea of a saved person falling away from salvation (fyi, I don’t think a true believe can lose salvation either), but he’s okay with a person being tricked by God into thinking they are truly saved but then falling away? What’s the difference? How is it more comforting to a Calvinist to think the elect cannot fall away but to think that people can think they are elect but then fall away? How can a Calvinist know for sure that they are truly elect instead of one of the non-elect tricked by evanescent grace until they die?
When it comes down to it, it’s very telling (to me) that the Bible can share the gospel in one verse, John 3:16, but Calvinists take hundreds and hundreds of pages to explain it and spend months and months studying Calvinist books to understand it. And even then, they have so many loose-ends and contradictions that they have to go “Oh, well, we can’t understand God anyway. His ways are so far above ours. Who are we to question Him anyway?” And it’s all because they will not take the Bible at face value, that if God said “believe” and that He Jesus died for all and that He wants all people to be saved, then it means we can believe because Jesus died for all and that He made salvation possible for all because He wants all people to be saved. The gospel is simple. It’s Calvinists who complicate it.
Good questions, Jeff! Lots of deep thinking.
Oops, that should read “THEY believe faith is something God injects into the elect,”. (2nd paragraph)
Maybe the moderator could fix that for me. Thank you. 🙂
br.d
Jeff – here is little parable for you.
.
There was once a girl who lived in a small town.
She always insisted that she would never allow anyone to see her without her makeup on.
And she wore a large amount of makeup!
.
One day – at the local ladies Salon – a number of town ladies were talking about her
One of them said “I wish I could see what she looks like without all of that makeup on!’
.
Another lady said – “I just happen to have a picture of her without her makeup on”
So they all gathered around to look at the picture.
.
Just then the girl walked into the Salon and saw them all looking at the picture.
She wanted to know what they were looking at.
She insisted
So they showed her the picture – and she realized it was her – but without her makeup.
.
She became very insistent – pointed at the picture and insisted: “That is a distorted representation of me!”
One of the girls said “But how can that be a distorted representation – when it is simply you without the makeup?”
.
Again being very insistent – she said “I have the right to represent myself the way I want to be seen – and what I want people to see. The *CORRECT* representation of me – is simply what I want people to see. That picture is not me!
That picture is a distorted representation!”
.
Jeff:
This is what you need to understand about Calvinism.
When a Calvinist author or speaker provides a representation of Calvinism – what he is presenting is a *COSMETIC* representation. It is a representation of Calvinism which he wants you to see.
.
Eventually – you will learn – what Calvinism looks like *WITHOUT ITS LIBRARY OF SEMANTIC MASKS* which Calvinists paint over the face of the doctrine in order to make the doctrine *APPEAR* to be what they want you to see.
.
When you learn what Calvinism really looks like – then you will be able to clearly enunciate it to any Calvinist.
What he is going to tell you however – is that your representation is a “distorted” representation” of Calvinism.
.
The Calvinist – just like our girl in our story – does not find the TRUE face of Calvinism palatable.
So they spend all of their time creating *COSMETIC* representations of the doctrine – in order to paint pictures of it which they want people to see.
.
Once you learn the degree to which Calvinist representations of their doctrine are *COSMETIC* representation – then you will understand why the Calvinist uses the TULIP as a *COSMETIC MASK* to hide what he does not want to you to see.
.
It takes time and research to understand what makes the Calvinist tick.
And you eventually learn – the picture he paints of the doctrine is a *MASK*
It is the picture of Calvinism – that he wants you to see.
.
Blessings
br,d
Br.d. Love the analogy. I’m gonna have to use “Calvinism with (or without) its makeup on” from now on. 🙂
br.d
Good one Heather!! 😀
br.d & Heather , I also found from
the website
examiningcalvinism.com a large article headlined
“Calvinism Answered Verse by Verse Subject by Subject” by
Richard Coords on
July 17, 2022
br.d
Per your post – I took a brief view of that pdf document.
.
Here is one statement at the beginning:
-quote
The Bible is never read in a vacuum. In other words, we are not a blank slate. Before we ever read a single verse in the Bible, we already have our own worldviews and philosophies firmly in place. This is what it means to have “presuppositions.”
.
VERY TRUE!!!
The example that I consistently use concerning that – is the fact that years ago in certain societies – people were brought up to believe the earth is the center of the universe and the sun orbits around the earth. Those people were taught to accept that as unquestionable truth.
.
Also within those societies – certain people held scripture as unquestionable truth
So what happens within the human mind- when it holds both of those as unquestionable truth?
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When that mind reads scripture – it cannot fathom the possibility that scripture would contradict that which is unquestionable truth.
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Therefore – that human mind is guaranteed to see a geocentric model of the solar system within scripture.
The *HOLY INTERPRETERS* of scripture in that day might want to burn you to the stake – if you did not affirm – the scripture clearly teaches the sun orbits around the earth – because it is heresy to contradict the *HOLY INTERPRETERS* of scripture.
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Nicolaus Copernicus refused to have his astronomical findings published until after his death – for fear he would be burnt to the stake as a heretic. He would have been seen as contradicting *THE HOLY INTERPRETERS* of scripture.
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Today there are even a few people who are convinced – the Bible teaches the earth is flat!
If you disagree with them – you are disagreeing with the clear teaching of scripture.
The good news is – they don’t have the power to burn you to the stake! :-]
.
When I bump into people like that – I am confronting the same phenomenon I see with Calvinists.
The Calvinist mind is conditioned by what is called “MILIEU CONTROL”
His mind is conditioned to accept and hold everything he hears in a Calvinist congregation as *unquestionable truth*
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Calvinists today hold to that conception – with the same tenacity that people held to a flat earth and a geocentric solar system – many years ago.
.
Its the same human phenomenon .
What is different – is the century we live in – and the “unquestionable truth” the Calvinist is taught to accept.
br.d , Heather and Everyone Else
patheos.com has an interesting article headlined
“3 Lenses With Which to View the So-Called ‘Clear Biblical Truths’ ”
NOVEMBER 14, 2017 BY MATTHEW DISTEFANO , Which of these 3 “Lenses” would be best to view clear Biblical Truths ?
Is it possible for someone to be both Lutheran and somewhat Calvinistic in Theology & Doctrine, or is it possible for a
Christian to be Both Universalist and Calvinist, a Calvinist Universalist ? Or are they automatic oxymoronic
Plus carm.org has a good article by
Matt Slick on July 4, 2023 headlined
“What does it mean that the Bible is inspired?”
br.d
Hello Jeff
On you question – whether someone can be both Lutheran and somewhat Calvinist – this is actually very common.
The reason – is because both Luther and Calvin derived their theology from Augustine
The reason Calvinism is founded on Determinism – is because Determinism was an inherent aspect of Gnosticism and NeoPlatonism – which were both very prevalent within Augustine’s day.
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Within scholarship – Augustine is considered one of the primary conduits of the mixing of NeoPlatonism into Catholic doctrine. NeoPlatonism – was the doctrinal system of a Greek man named Plotinus.
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Augustine – throughout all of his later life – was an ardent disciple of the doctrines of Plotinus
.
Augustine corresponded by letter to a close friend Nebridius, who praises how Augustine’s letters: “speak of Christ, Plato and Plotinus”.
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We must remember – this is a period of time in which the Catholic church is in its embryonic phase.
And Catholic church did not embrace the instruction within scripture to war against principalities and powers
The Catholic church adopted the position that it could gain prowess by adding pagan principalities and powers to itself.
It therefore adopted and synchronized pagan deities and doctrine into itself rather than rejecting them.
.
As Catholic Historian Theodore Maynord writes:
-quote
“It has often be charged… that Catholicism has been overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that charge – and to make it her boast. The great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized.”
.
Augustine thrived within the hierarchical power structure of the Catholic church during this time period.
Augustine does not baptize the great god Pan – he baptizes elements of Gnosticism and Neo-Platonism
John Calvin – many years later – in his worshipful adoration of all things Augustine – swallows the camel.
.
Luther was also a student of Augustine – although it is said he departed from Augustine in his later years.
But both Luther and Calvin have their starting point with Augustine – so they have much in common.
.
On your second question – can a person be both universalist and Calvinist – the answer would have to be no.
Not if that person wanted to be considered a *TRUE* Calvinist
.
Calvinism – as you know is founded on EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM
In Calvin’s conception – we have a god who creates/designs the vast majority of his human creatures – specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
.
So that totally precludes universalism.
.
On references to Matt Slick – I really don’t find anything by him of any value.
When I look for drinking water – I make an effort find water which does not contain traces of poisonous elements.
When one listens or reads a Calvinist – one is going to get traces of elements – which I consider poisonous.
This is a major problem with many Calvinist publications – such as books written by John MacArthur
They are subtly marketed as Calvinist materials
But Calvinists know – if they indicate their material is Calvinist material – many people will choose to avoid it.
So they dishonestly hide the fact that their material is Calvinist material – in order to infiltrate the Non-Calvinist marketplace.
.
Personally – I consider that a form of dishonesty.
But I also understand the psychology of Calvinism justifies various forms of dishonesty
So any form of Calvinist dishonesty does not surprise me.
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Blessings
br.d
Hi Jeff, Do you mind me asking, what is your opinion on the things you read and share with us? What conclusions have you come to about them? Or are you still on the journey, wading through all the views out there? I’m sure there’s a lot to think about, and you’ve clearly done a lot of research. Just wondering. 🙂
Thank you Heather i too was curious🤔
–also thank you for your blog and all the work you did on the ESV version much in there to consider!!.. interesting last Thursday i shared some of the issues and some areas to dig deeper… but sadly i was passiaggressively ask to bow out of the study.. the real telling thing to me was i wouldn’t have brought anything up except she was short one hand out and i simply said I’ll read from my Bible on line… then she demanded we read… or rather said No we need to all read from same version, so we don’t confuse anyone –something like that… then a couple days later i sent further info via text if she were willing to view.. i was told, that i was trying to undermine her and not to hinder God’s work in this community. Odd i thought i was just presenting something… before i read your blog i knew way back something was off, because if someone needs to force me to not compare and this was the most accurate version.. this came from my brother in law which i was already introduced to calvinism by my sister which is definitely not what He was teaching me in His Word… & i get this particular thread is not for this, but just wanted to say thank you, so much God has used you to see why i knew something was off🌻
Your fellow sister in Christ blessings😊
Thank you, Reggie! I appreciate your kind words about my blog. I am glad it could help you. I’m sorry you were asked to leave the study because of Bible translations. What a weird thing for them to freak out about and to enforce. You’d think that studying the Bible and that fellowship itself would be more important than which translation you use.
And I love your use of the sunflower emoji (been meaning to tell you that). Was it you who, long ago, said it should be the mascot flower of non-Calvinism/Provisionism because it always turns it head towards the Son? 🙂
God bless, sister!
Your welcome Heather and I agree it’ is odd to be so pushy about reading from one translation during a “”Bible study” especially when she never did this before… sadly it seems she likes for people to look to her for her knowledge –at least that’s how she’s come across to me in the past… i do tend to push back against that type of teaching/knowledge… i tried to let her know my intent in bringing this matter into the light (not even entirely in class) wasn’t meant to be divisional and i would never want to hinder a lost soul from hearing His life saving message of the gospel… & i let her know, that we all need His discernment and we need to remain teachable no matter who we are… I do think people can get attached to certain translations of the Bible, because they think it makes more sense or easier to understand, but if we ask God, He will help us understand! The Bible is meant for all and i encouraged her that I’m sure we both trust that.. then i gave her this passage.
Romans 10:17 NKJV — So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Maybe at some point she will be open to discussing this but i also know tradition matters to her as well. Currently my husband and i go back and forth from the east coast and the west and i definitely find it much more difficult to find a church home on the east coast there is much tradition in our area..
–Indeed i have mentioned the sunflower, but not sure I’m the one who pointed out that it always turns its head toward the Son always love that thought!!!. Also how God uses Leighton “Flowers” to come up against the Tulip systematic☺ i know God has a sense of humor and He is indeed recognizably good!!
May His peace be with you🌻
Thank you for sharing, Reggie! May God use your boldness and discernment for His kingdom and Truth. And keep being someone who’s willing to rattle the cage bars of tradition a little. It’s important that there are people like this in the Church to keep it from getting stuck in error, legalism, meaningless rituals, heresy, etc. Jesus was always rattling cages (still is), especially those of the spiritual authorities at that time.
And you might be right about the Bible study leader wanting people to come to her for her knowledge. The Calvinist pastor at the church we left was like that. (Of course, it’s not a problem just in Calvinist circles – anyone can fall into it – but possible more so in Calvinism because they unconsciously view themselves as the upper elite circle of Christianity, those who have reached the “highest level” because they learned the “hidden, deepest truths” of Scripture and are “humble” enough to accept it. It’s no wonder Calvinist leaders would not feel good about being challenged by us “simpletons” or by those who are so “unhumble” as to question their theology.)
Anyway, he would talk/write about what books he likes, what theologians he recommends, what Bible he recommends, what they did for family devotions, what they did around the dinner table, what he thinks about spanking (that God commands we physically spank our children and that it has to hurt), etc. And it was always with a “this is how I do things and so this is how you should do things too” attitude, as though he thought we all were looking to him, Papa Smurf, to tell us how to be and how to live, as if we all wanted to be just like him and would be lost without him. It always turned me off. I always imagined that in his head, he’s saying “This is MY church, MY people. Look at the church I built!”
And so I’m sure he didn’t take too kindly to the comments I started leaving on the church blog disagreeing with his theology (some of my comments – polite and biblical – got deleted, and then eventually they stopped allowing comments altogether, because of me) or to the many-paged letter we finally sent to the elders about how wrong we think Calvinism is and how wrong we think it is for him to push it like it’s the only view to have (the elders all sided with him because they were all Calvinists, which he ensured by taking all elders through Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology studies).
We ended up leaving that church. But a couple weeks ago, I was contacted by another member who now sees what I saw about the pastor and about the errors of Calvinism. Maybe she can be the change we couldn’t be there. I pray God uses you to help the Bible study leader of yours to learn some humility and teachable-ness, and that He uses you to help others in that study learn to be Bereans themselves. God bless! And have a great day. 🙂
Heather great point here when you say; “because they learned the “hidden, deepest truths” of Scripture and are “humble” enough to accept it.” & This is MY church, MY people. Look at the church I built!” this attitude reminds me of Nebuchadnezzar😳
–Also you highlight things well in regard to doubt if the validity of calvinism is true,… honestly i too struggled and felt tossed back and forth with their clever proof texting… thankfully God brought a like minded friend into my life going through a similar struggle within her family… and in the end not only did God bring assurance that what i was being lead away from (calvinism) was valid there were actual scholars who saw the error!!! & the one simple thought if —then.. how could i truly rest in Him if the “T” is really total inability, because if I’m totally unable then it seems i could have as easily been totally tricked as well… and there is No true love in trickery… AND i do trust He is not a liar nor a deceiver nor duplicitous… that is the actual enemy!!! and to stand against this systems claim is the only thing we can do… if we care!!!!
So thank for standing up too & may God bless you🌻
Reggie: “and to stand against this systems claim is the only thing we can do… if we care!!!!”
Amen, so true! I stand against Calvinism not because I want to hurt/discourage/fight anyone, but because I care about them and about the Truth, because I want all people to know they too can find the healing, forgiveness, salvation that I’ve found. No one is hopeless, doomed to burned.
I’m so glad that you found someone else who thought the same as you, to help you through, to help you feel like you weren’t crazy for disagreeing with Calvinism. We (my husband and I) basically had to go through it nearly alone at our church (there were a couple other people who also had their doubts and concerns, but we alone confronted the elders). But I am so thankful that we’re now able to help others going through it, to encourage those who also see something wrong with Calvinism but who feel like they’re alone in it.
Keep up the good work, too, Reggie! It’s a battle worth fighting because people’s souls and God’s truth/character and the gospel are on the line.
God bless! 🙂
Heather , in response to your Question of July 18, 2023
My Reply is, as an Evangelical Protestant Christian, other than The Very Basic Essential Christian Doctrine, I don’t Know who or what to believe, I have some Bible Knowledge , but don’t understand some things in the Bible , Plus from
merionwest.com there is an article on December 7, 2019
headlined “University Professor: the Reason Academia is useless” by a person using the pseudonym “Junior Torrent” the article starts with the words –
““Socrates and all the other great Greek masters emphasized the importance of leisure as part of education. In our Calvinist world, this has become a major sin.”
If you think about it, most Christian visions of heaven are nightmarish (no sex, singing hymns all day). One particularly frightful prospect of heaven is captured by the popular T-shirt: Jesus is coming, look busy! Alas, the Lord doth not like slackers. So, I suppose that in heaven, you have to pretend that you are working, at least while the big boss is around.” The full article is online, but the article says we live in a Calvinist World, so does that Make Calvinism True , is there any way to Prove Calvinism True or Not
Jeff, I can see why you struggle so much with the fear that Calvinism might be true. Because it is everywhere and spreading, and because many of the Big Name Theologians teach it. Kind of a “might makes right” thing, that if most Christians (seem to) believe it then it must be right, right?
Personally, I think the Bible warns about such a thing:
2 Timothy 4:3-4: “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Just because a “great number” all says the same thing doesn’t make them right. Sometimes it just means that the great number tricks and traps people into their views, and that people are easily swayed by popular, powerful speakers, letting others tell them what to think instead of researching it for themselves.
I think Calvinism can indeed be proven untrue for a very simple reason: It doesn’t take God’s Word at face-value. It denies/contradicts the simple, plain, easily-understood, commonsense, in-context message of the Bible. It looks at what a verse says and goes “Nope, it doesn’t really mean what it seems to be saying. There is a deeper, hidden meaning underneath it that changes what it seems to be saying. And we need to go to Calvinists to learn what this deeper ‘truth’ is, what God really meant to say.”
Calvinism is really just another version of “Did God really say…?”
If we non-Calvinists are wrong, at least we can stand before God in the end and say “But I just took what You said the way You said it, at face-value.” But if Calvinists are wrong, then when they stand before God, they’ll have to say “Yeah, I saw what You wrote in the Bible, but I was sure there must be some sort of hidden, deeper layer that altered what You said on the surface. I let other people convince me that You didn’t really mean what You said the way You said it.”
I’d rather be the first one, erring on the side of taking God at His Word instead of looking for and buying into hidden teachings that aren’t there.
I’m not sure if I shared my blog with you before – it’s The Anti-Calvinist Rant (a blogspot.com website) – but I have spent several years deeply researching why and how Calvinism is wrong. I began researching it after our church was stealthily taken over by Calvinism, under our noses, through much misuse of Scripture, manipulation, and deception.
As a licensed counselor, I noticed the manipulation and deception immediately, how the pastor was trying to strong-arm people into seeing things his way, into not disagreeing with him. And it alerted me to the fact that something was going to be wrong with his teaching. Anyone who needs to rely on manipulation to get you to side with them and to shut up any opposition is going to be trying to sell you something bad.
Also, you might like Beyond the Fundamentals. Kevin looks at the psychology behind Calvinism and how it spreads. One particular thing he says about Calvinist theologians that I like is “It takes a lot of education to be that stupid.”
Calvinists do not take the Bible at face-value. They do not believe that the Bible can be understood by all, that it teaches simple, basic truths that anyone can understand. Calvinists needs to be special, to think they have some sort of deeper knowledge, higher intelligence, and greater ability to understand things the average person can’t understand, as if they discovered God’s secrets that are veiled to normal people. Satan traps them through their desire to know more about God, to bring Him more glory, and to be more humble. (Calvinists are like “WE accept that a sovereign God can cause sin/evil/child abuse, and can predestine people to go to hell. That’s how humble we are! We accept things we don’t like and can’t understand, honoring God’s ‘sovereignty’, trusting Him anyway even if it seems wrong and unjust and unloving to us.” Satan uses their humility against them.)
Personally, I think you are in a better position to understand the plain, simple truths of Scripture precisely because you keep it simple (The Very Basic Essential Christian Doctrine), like C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. You don’t need to get caught up in trying to learn “deeper, hidden” things. Just keep reading the Bible as it was intended to be read, in the commonsense way it was intended to be understood. Don’t let people (Calvinists) convince you that there are deeper, hidden truths you need to learn, and that you need to read THEIR books or listen to THEIR sermons to help you learn it.
God’s truths are for everyone, child to adult, the simple-hearted to the scholars. But the more we let other people trick us into thinking there is some sort of mysterious “hidden, deeper layer,” the more we will be swayed into reading things into it that aren’t there, and the more we will miss out of the simple, beautiful truths of God’s Word.
I think having only “some Bible knowledge” puts you at a greater advantage that those who educated themselves into stupidity. You can read the Bible with more pure eyes. They have to unlearn everything they learned, taking off the Calvinist glasses they glued to their heads, before they can see/understand the simple truths of Scripture.
I’m going to recommend that you watch the pastor I trust most: Dr. Tony Evans. When I first started researching Calvinism and realized that practically every theologian/pastor I ran across was Calvinist, it was freaking me out. It made me feel like maybe I was the only one who had a problem with Calvinism. Maybe I was the only one seeing it the way I did? Maybe I was understanding it all wrong?
But then I decided that I had to look up ONE MORE pastor (one I had always enjoyed and respected), Tony Evans. He was going to be the last one I would check out before I gave up and resigned myself to Calvinism. But when I watched/read his stuff, I exhaled in relief. He saw things the same way I did. And his understanding of the Bible is so simple, so practical, and it rings of truth. I could feel it in my soul. I could feel my soul starting to come to life again, instead of suffocating and shriveling up under the Calvinist teaching I had been hearing. And since then (about 6 years or so), I have been watching and reading him regularly, and he is just so accurate, so practical, so biblical. I highly recommend him to anyone who is recovering from Calvinism. (Also, a friend who left her Calvinist church highly recommends Andy Woods. He is good too, but dry.)
Anyway, my advice to you, Jeff, is to keep it simple. You’re doing just fine the way you are. God bless.
Oops, two typos:
It should be “I think having only “some Bible knowledge” puts you at a greater advantage THAN those who educated themselves into stupidity.”
And it was “about 6 years AGO or so” that I started watching Tony Evans regularly.
Some of Tony Evans books I highly recommend, for the basics, are:
Theology You Can Count On (A must read for all the basics)
Our God is Awesome: Encountering the Greatness of our God
The Promise: Experiencing God’s Greatest Gift – The Holy Spirit
The Battle is the Lord’s: Waging Victorious Spiritual Warfare
Totally Saved: Understanding, Experiencing, and Enjoying the Greatness of Your Salvation (the book that made me realize he was not a Calvinist and that I was seeing things correctly, that made my soul start to breathe again)
Heather , a little bit off topic , but the merionwest.com article I mentioned claimed that there is No Sex in Heaven
While I’m an Evangelical Protestant myself , Not a Mormon , LDS believer , based on my Research I do believe
Christians will indeed enjoy
Sex & Lovemaking in Heaven and the New Earth along with many other pleasures of this current Earthly Life, such as
Food, Beverage, Music, Sports, etc , see this Blog by Tom Gruber and my comments
(web-link snippet removed)
br.d
Jeff – you didn’t know this – but we ask poster not to post links to other web-sites.
You can refer to another web-site – but please don’t post a link.
.
Thanks
br.d
Heather , br.d & Everyone Else
Me Again, what about the Bible verses
Deuteronomy 29:29
“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
& Romans 11:33
“Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” In Addition to
Isaiah 55:8-9 about God’s Thoughts and ways being higher than our human thoughts and ways, these verses are used to Support Calvinism , how should we respond. The Book of Isaiah , that’s what I say a 😆
This is so confusing
br.d
Hello Jeff and good morning!
Hope this finds you well
.
Let me take your verse questions one at a time
I will need to create a separate post for each verse in order to explain each one properly.
So look for other posts after this one.
VERSE:
The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
.
This verse has two sections A and B
A: The secret things belong to the Lord
That is an understanding that is generic to all Christian theologies
There is no Christian theology which would argue that there are not SECRET things which only God knows.
.
B: things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law
.
Now this part of the verse actually works against Calvinism – for the following reasons:
.
In Calvinism – per the doctrine of decrees:
1) Every movement of every atomic particle within nature is PREDESTINED by infallible decree at the foundation of the world – and cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
.
2) This means – every impulse that comes to pass within the human brain – is PREDESTINED by infallible decree at the foundation of the world – and cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
.
3) There is no such thing as an ALTERNATIVE from that which is decreed granted to creation.
The existence of any ALTERNATIVE from that which is decreed would falsify the decree.
The decree is infallible and cannot be falsified.
Therefore NO ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed are granted existence within creation where man exists.
.
4) This means – in Calvinism – there are NO ALTERNATIVES for man to choose between – because they do not exist.
5) [DO] and [NOT DO] are ALTERNATIVES of each other.
.
So in Calvinism – man is not granted a choice between [DO] and [NOT DO] in regard to anything.
Thus – in Calvinism – man is not granted a choice about whether he will [DO] the words of the law or [NOT DO] the words of the law.
.
Per the doctrine of decrees – in order for PERSON_X to [DO] the words of the law at TIME-T
Calvin’s god would have to decree PERSON_X will [DO] the words of the law at TIME-T
If Calvin’s god does not decree that event – then that event is not granted existence.
.
John Calvin
-quote
*NOTHING HAPPENS* that is not knowingly and willingly decreed.
.
Now – if it is decreed that PERSON_X will [DO] the words of the law at TIME-T
Then that decree is infallible
And NO ALTERNATIVE from that decree is granted existence within creation.
Consequently no ALTERNATIVE exists for PERSON_X
Thus PERSON_X does not have a CHOICE between [DO] the words of the law – and [NOT DO] the words of the law – because [NOT DO] is CONTRARY to the decree.
And that which is CONTRARY to the decree is not granted existence within creation.
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So this verse works against Calvinism – because it infers man is granted a CHOICE about whether he will [DO] the words of the law or [NOT DO] the words of the law.
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And in Calvinism- that CHOICE does not exist for man.
In Calvinism – man has NO SAY and NO CHOICE and NO CONTROL over any impulse that will come to pass within his brain.
br.d
Here is the second part of your question:
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“Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!”
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This would line up with part A of the first verse you gave – regarding secrets.
There is nothing about this verse for Calvinism that does not apply to any other theology.
.
HOWEVER:
A Calvinist may want to argue that *ALL* of Calvin’s god’s judgments are “unknowable” or “unsearchable” to man. If that is the case – then scripture itself would prove that Calvinist wrong
Because scripture is full of divine judgments which are revealed to man
Therefore it would be silly to argue that *ALL* divine judgements are “unknowable” to man.
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Isaiah 55:8-9 about God’s Thoughts and ways being higher than our human thoughts and ways.
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The answer to this verse is identical.
This verse is generic to all Christian theologies
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However – lets take a slightly different verse in regard to God’s ways vs Man’s ways
.
Isaiah 55:8-9
For My thoughts are not your thoughts. Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
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This verse is in contradiction to Calvinism – for the following reasons:
In Calvinism – per the doctrine of decrees – in order for a “thought” to pass within a human brain
1) Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world *MUST* FIRST CONCEIVE that thought
2) Calvin’s god *MUST* then decree that thought come to pass within the human brain
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Therefore – it follows – every thought which comes to pass within the human brain was FIRST CONCEIVED within Calvin’s god’s mind.
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A thought that is FIRST CONCEIVED within Calvin’s god’s mind – is in fact Calvin’s god’s thought.
It is a thought – which Calvin’s god FIRST CONCEIVED – and then simply *MADE* come to pass within a human brain.
And since every movement within creation is made infallible – it follows – the human is granted NO SAY and NO CHOICE and NO CONTROL over any thought that will come to pass within his brain.
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So that verse is a CONTRADICTION of Calvinism’s doctrine of decrees
The same would be the case for man’s “WAYS”.
Per the doctrine of decrees – every man’s “WAYS” would be FIRST CONCEIVED within Calvin’s god’s mind – and then *MADE* to infallibly come to pass within the domain of man’s body.
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So what we have in Calvinism – is Calvin’s god *MAKING* his thoughts and his ways infallibly come to pass within the domain of man’s brain and body.
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Thus that part of that verse stands in CONTRADICTION to Calvinism.
Good question, Jeff. And good answers, Br.d. (Sorry, Jeff, I didn’t know you had replied. I don’t get comment notifications, so I just have to stumble upon them.)
I’ll add my two cents about the verses you used. Personally, I don’t think the fact that God knows things we don’t implies inherent support for Calvinism. It simply means God knows things we don’t, that we can’t know all the things God knows or understand Him fully. This is (as Br.d points out) the same for all religions. And it in no way speaks specifically to the idea of Calvinist predestination or election.
But Calvinists hijack verses like these to turn them into something they’re not. They use them to justify their contradictions and to excuse the damage Calvinism does to God’s character, such as when they say that God says He wants all people to be saved but predestines people to hell, or that He commands us to obey/believe but “ordains” our sins/unbelief, or that He “ordains” our sin but holds us accountable for it. And when we point out the damage this does to God’s character and Word, they go “Oh, God is so mysterious, so far above us that we can’t figure Him out. His ways are not our ways. Who are we to talk back to Him anyway?”
They use verses like these to shut people up, to stop them from disagreeing with them or pointing out the inconsistencies and problems.
(Ironically, they talk like God is “so mysterious” that we humans can’t understand anything about Him when it comes to the contradictions Calvinism creates … and yet, apparently, they HAVE figured out the “deeper mysteries” of God and the ways He works, and they expect us to go to THEM to learn about it. It’s ironic.)
All these verses mean are that there are things we can’t know and things we can. And the big problem is that Calvinists essentially deny the things we can know (the things God clearly and plainly teaches us in His Word, the simple commonsense truths He reveals to us about Him, His ways, the gospel, salvation, our responsibilities, our right to decide, etc.), and they substitute in “mysterious teachings/deeper hidden truths” that are NOT supported by the Bible plainly or clearly in any verse… and then when we object, they claim “God’s ways are higher than ours, we can’t figure it out and we shouldn’t even try to. We should just accept these ‘mysteries’ and live with the tension. We don’t have to know how it all works together because God does. In eternity, it will be clear, but until then we just have to humbly accept it, even if it sounds wrong or bad to us.”
It’s manipulation, gaslighting, brainwashing. And I’d say it’s how false religions and cults work. And it’s how Calvinism spreads, tricking good Christians into shutting off their spiritual radar, taking off their critical-thinking caps, and ignoring the red flags. In fact, that the only way Calvinism could spread. Because if people began examining the deception of Calvinism and the tactics it uses and if they began really researching what Calvinism teaches and comparing it to the plain teachings of the Bible, in context – if Christians were good Bereans – Calvinism would die.
Blessings!
Heather, and all,
The only source of knowledge of God is the Word of God, aka Jesus, aka the scriptures.
And the way that I’ve always interpreted that particular verse is…
God hid TREASURE in the Bible, and it is up to any individual to do some Treasure Hunting, to find the HIDDEN THINGS OF GOD.
In a nutshell, that’s it. The Bible is a unique book. Some things are PLAINLY written, while most things are not. I mean, can anyone really read Jeremiah, or Isaiah, and really understand what is said PLAINLY? IF ANYONE answers yes, they are lying.
You have to DIG to find the treasure. And when you do, if you were to tell someone, especially another Christian… they would think you were nuts, unorthodox, false teacher, etc.
So, you hold onto it on your heart.
Ed Chapman
Ed, I like that way of interpreting it! And it’s so how I understand God to operate, putting His truth out there to be found and letting us decide to search for it, find it, see it, or not. Enough light for those who want to see the truth, enough darkness for those who don’t. The same reason Jesus talked in parables. 🙂
br.d, Heather & Everyone Else
I found this following comment online from 2021 , how would we respond
“JOHN IS CRYSTAL CLEAR: the enemies of Jesus who make war with Jesus when he returns end up saved!
Here is the proof.
The enemies of Jesus who make war against him when he returns are identified as:
“THE KINGS OF THE EARTH”
Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast and THE KINGS OF THE EARTH and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army”
1. Here the “kings of the earth” are at war with Jesus as he returns to earth. They are clearly lost.
Revelation tells us that they end up in THE LAKE OF FIRE which is described as OUTSIDE THE PRECINCTS OF THE NEW JERUSALEM.
Note that the lost in the lake of fire are described by a list of characteristics.
Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur
This same group of people in the lake of fire (which we know includes the kings of the earth) are mentioned again in the next chapter … and it’s here that we learn something new about the GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION of the lake of fire!
Please note that we have 2 distinct groups mentioned in the following verses: those inside the gates of the new Jerusalem and THOSE OUTSIDE THE GATES OF THE NEW JERUSALEM!
Revelation 22:14-15 New International Reader’s Version (NIRV)
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will have the right to come to the tree of life. They will be allowed to go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside the city are those who are impure, the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Clearly it’s the same group here that we just saw described in the previous chapter.
Both verses mention: sorcerers, sexually immoral, murderers, idolaters etc.
And in chapter 21 it’s clear that they are in the lake of fire!
But in this passage we read of two distinct groups:
THOSE WHO GO INSIDE the city through its gates and those OUTSIDE the gates.
And the right for admission into the city through its gates is to WASH THEIR ROBES – which is a phrase used in revelation as surrender to Jesus.
Revelation 7:14
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Ok. So it’s crystal clear. If you enter into the new Jerusalem through its gates it’s because YOU HAVE WASHED YOUR ROBES IN THE BLOOD OF THE BLOOD – you have been purified (made white) by surrender to Jesus.
Q. So what about the kings of the earth? Are they stuck OUTSIDE the gates of the new Jerusalem and inside the lake of fire forever?
No!
We read that the kings of the earth eventually end up joining the saints already inside the new Jerusalem!
We are told that the kings of the earth eventually end up entering the new Jerusalem through its ever open gates FROM OUTSIDE THE GATES – which in revelation is the location of the lake of fire. Remember that in the celestial geography of Revelation the ONLY place described outside the gates of the new Jerusalem is the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:24
And the nations shall walk by its light, and THE KINGS OF THE EARTH shall bring their glory INTO IT (the New Jerusalem).
Look at this translation:
Revelation 21:24-25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
24 The peoples of the world will walk by the light given by the Lamb. The kings of the earth will bring their glory INTO THE CITY. 25 The city’s gates will never close
YAY!
The kings of the earth enter INTO THE CITY! Its gates are never closed to those outside its gates – to those in the lake of fire.
To enter into the city you must be OUTSIDE ITS GATES and the only place outside the gates is the lake of fire.
So there it is!
The kings of the earth – the very same group that are described as trying to make war against Jesus and kill him when he returns … end up in the lake of fire outside the gates of the new Jerusalem …
But it’s temporary!
You see they eventually enter into the ever open gates of the new Jerusalem from the outside – the lake of fire!
And there is only one way anyone can enter into the gates of the new Jerusalem remember?
Revelation 22:14-15 New International Reader’s Version (NIRV)
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will be allowed to go through the gates into the city.
YAY YAY YAY!!!
In the lake of fire … the kings of the earth HAVE WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB! That’s the purpose of the lake of fire – to cleanse. Fire in Greek is puros which means to purify.
And so after washing in the blood of the lamb in the lake of fire, the kings of the earth – the enemies of Jesus – are allowed to enter into the new Jerusalem to the throne of Jesus.
All saved (restored) … eventually!”
Can some Elements of Calvinism coexist with Universalism , will Everyone be Restored or Saved Eventually as this post says
br.d
Hi Jeff,
Universalism is identified by the majority of Christianity as an extremely fringe system.
We have warnings – given to use by the authors of the N.T. which cannot be ignored.
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For example:
We have Jesus’ parable of the wheat and the tares
-quote
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.
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And we have Hebrews
-quote
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
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Now that verse in Hebrews – does not fit into Calvinism either – for the following reasons:
1) In Calvinism – Calvin’s god is a divine potter – who at the foundation of the world before humans are created – CONCEIVES of each individual – and CONCEIVES of what that individual’s eternal destiny will be.
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2) The vast majority of individuals are CONCEIVED by Calvin’s god specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
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3) The remaining individuals – who are not CONCEIVED for damnation – are elect – and are assigned a different eternal destiny.
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4) The critical fact in Calvinism is that every individual who will be created is *ASSIGNED* an eternal destiny before they are created – and that eternal destiny is INFALLIBLE.
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5) Thus in Calvinism – every individuals eternal destiny is FIXED AS INFALLIBLE before creation is created.
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6) Now logic tells us – that it is impossible for something that is INFALLIBLE to “fall away” from being INFALLIBLE
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7) Consequently – in Calvinism – there is no such thing as a person “falling away” from salvation
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Because:
8) The NON-ELECT were specifically created as NON-ELECT INFALLIBLY and at no time were they ever saved. One cannot “fall away” from being saved – if one was INFALLIBLY never saved
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9) The ELECT are saved INFALLIBLY and thus cannot be UN-saved.
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So as a conclusion – I would say – this person’s reading of scripture represents an extreme fringe
These people would have to figure out ways to ignore or tap-dance around obvious statements within scripture which contradict their system.
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Blessings!
br.d
Personally, I don’t think this “kings of the earth” things supports Universalism. Just because “kings” are mentioned in one place, doesn’t mean it’s the same “kings” mentioned elsewhere.
Personally, I think “kings” is just meant to mean the leaders at that particular time. And there are different leaders at different times. There are earthly, worldly leaders now, and in the New Jerusalem there will be godly leaders. I think it’s easy for us to conflate things in the Bible that shouldn’t be conflated just because we see similar wording in different places. But it takes more critical thinking than that to understand what the Bible is trying to say, in context and at different times.
Once again, I haven’t looked into this particular example, so what I say is just general advice.
But as far as Calvinism and Universalism. I think the very fact that they believe that there are non-elect people whom Jesus never even died for shows that they could not be Universalists.
I’m not a Universalist either, but for a different reason. I think the offer of salvation is open to all but that many people will choose, of their own free-will, to reject it. And therefore, they will not be saved.
The idea of hell is a hard thing to accept, but I think the fact that Jesus warned about it so much shows that it’s a real threat/possibility, and I trust that God gives every chance He can to people, to help draw them to Him. So no one is hopelessly lost. All have the chance to be saved, but not all will take it.
br.d , from patheos.com I found an article headlined
“Studying the Spiritual Issues in Calvinism” on
JUNE 9, 2022 BY CONNOR BRENNAN
br.d
Hello Jeff
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I looked through the article – and happy to see how he recognizes Dr. Flower’s ministry and how he recognizes the Christ-like manner in which Dr. Flowers operates, and the burden of Agape love which Dr. Flowers consistently represents – especially on the subject of Calvinism.
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However – he misses something very critical
And the fact that he misses it becomes clear by his conclusion at the end of the article.
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He writes:
-quote
I feel bad for Reformed Christians who are simply trying to be objective in their faith. They have nothing to do with the extreme views held by Calvinist authorities, which, as Dr. Leighton has pointed out, can push people away from God.
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This is *NOT* an accurate understanding of Dr. Flower’s concern – because it is not an accurate understanding of the problem which Calvinism introduces.
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The problem with Calvinism – is not “extreme views” held by Calvinist authorities.
The problem with Calvinism – as Dr. Flowers has pointed out consistently – is the fact that its foundational core – and that which makes it unique – and which separates it from all of its alternatives is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within Calvin’s doctrine of decrees.
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John Calvin
-quote
The creatures…are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that NOTHING HAPPENS but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3)
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Consequently – it follows – NO PERCEPTION – can come to pass within the human brain – unless that perception is knowingly and willingly decreed.
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When you unpack-age this – what you find – is that the per that doctrine – the human brain is not granted the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE on the matter of anything – because Calvin’s god MUST determine what perception will come to pass within your brain.
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If Calvin’s god decrees your brain will perceive [X] as TRUE then perceiving [X] as TRUE is the ONLY OPTION granted to your brain. The option of your brain perceiving [X] as FALSE is rejected by infallible decree.
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If Calvin’s god decrees your brain will perceive [X] as FALSE then perceiving [X] as FALSE is the ONLY OPTION granted to your brain. The option of your brain perceiving [X] as TRUE is rejected by infallible decree.
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Consequently – the decree does not grant the human brain – the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE on the matter of anything.
That is the *RADICAL* nature of Calvinism’s doctrine of decrees
And that is just a tip of the iceberg of the consequences which come with the doctrine.
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No Calvinist has any CERTAINTY concerning whether he was created for the lake of fire or not.
The only way he will know – is when he wakes up in the lake of fire.
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Calvin’s god creates the vast majority of believers as CHAFF believers – and gives them a FALSE SENSE of salvation.
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There are many more problems with the doctrine
And the burden of love that Dr. Flowers has is great for people to not to be ensnared within it!!
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Blessings
br.d
br.d realityisnotoptional.com has an article headlined
“misquoted verses – God’s ways are higher than ours”
Posted by christopher fisher on
January 3, 2015 , What do you think of this article ? I hope and pray that when we Christians ultimately pass away and go to Heaven and then the New Earth, that God gives us the Perfect Interpretation and Comprehension of the Bible as only he would Know
It’s so confusing at times
br.d
Hi Jeff,
My guess is that this web-site is dedicated to Orthodox Christianity.
They have a tendency to be quite rational and intellectual and well educated.
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On the subject of how Calvinists read scripture – I think what the author is getting at – is the same thing N.T. Write would say about Calvinism.
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N.T. Write has a joke that he makes about Calvinism’s use of scripture and especially Romans 9
He says Romans 9 is the HAPPY HUNTING GROUND for the Calvinist.
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In other words – the Calvinist does not read scripture to see what it says.
He reads scripture HUNTING for INDICATORS of what he wants to see within it.
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It doesn’t matter if what he is HUNTING for is not there.
He NEEDS to FIND within scripture that which affirms his belief system.
Whether it is really there or not – is irrelevant to him.
.
I think this web-site would say that the Calvinist reading of scripture is highly subjective
It is heavily based on what the Calvinist finds palatable.
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In Calvinism EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) is the most sacred truth within scripture.
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However – there will be times when he reads EDD into certain verses – and doing so will result in a conclusion which he will not find palatable.
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When that happens – he will do an about-face and treat his most sacred truth within scripture *AS-IF* it doesn’t exist.
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This makes it clear that the Calvinist reading of scripture his highly subjective.
br.d It’s Jeff again , aka my new username is
jeffster
A person recently typed online about
Scripture Interpretation that “I believe that God says what He means, and means what He says. Anytime an author starts to give a new interpretation other than what the scripture specifically states, telling his readers that although the scripture specifically states “such and such”, it really means something else, that is called “eisegesis”, and is not being faithful to God’s Word. Eisegesis is the study of a text based on preconceived ideas of its meaning. Eisegesis is “reading stuff into scripture”. And, unfortunately, there is a lot of eisegesis taking place in the contemporary church. Faithful Bible students practice “exegesis”, which is interpreting a text by thorough analysis of the text’s specific content. Exegesis is what comes directly out of the specific wording in the scripture itself, without reading into it your own ideas and opinions.” How can we apply this to our Calvinism debate
br.d
Hello Jeff
Yes – but you need to understand what is behind Eisegesis.
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Dr. Gordon Fee – who used to give wonderful seminary lectures on this subject – would tell you that you need to understand how the human mind works.
A good way to explain it – is to recognize how Eisegesis has played out within history.
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There was a time in which men believed the earth was the center of the universe and the sun orbits around the earth.
They accepted that as a *UNQUESTIONABLE* truth.
Many of those people were also Bible reading people.
.
So when those people read verses within scripture which refer to the earth or the sun etc – the only association their minds can make is with what their minds currently hold as *UNQUESTIONABLE* truth.
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Their minds are guaranteed to interpret those verses according to what the mind comprehends.
Consequently – men in those times interpreted scripture so as to affirm a Geocentric conception of the universe.
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Now – the Calvinist for example – does the exact same thing.
The foundational core of Calvinism is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within Calvinism’s doctrine of decrees.
The doctrine of decrees is reiterated over and over and over in every sermon and in every teaching.
The Calvinist mind is inevitably conditioned to hold EDD as *UNQUESTIONABLE* truth.
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from that point on – when the Calvinist mind reads scripture – it automatically interprets scripture according to what it comprehends as *UNQUESTIONABLE* truth.
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The Jehovah’s Witness does the exact same thing.
His mind is conditioned to see his doctrine within the same exact Bible that the Calvinist reads.
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The Mormon does the exact same thing
His mind is conditioned to see his doctrine within the same exact Bible that the Calvinist reads.
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The human mind can only interpret data in accordance to internal associations.
It will always see within the data scripture exactly what it has been taught to accept as *UNQUESTIONABLE* truth.
Blessings!
br.d
br.d , I just found a Pro-Calvinist
article from
desiringgod.org headlined
“The Five Not-Points of Calvinism”
by Scott Hubbard on
October 31, 2022 How would you respond ?
br.d
Hello Jeff
.
I always find all Calvinist conceptions concerning the Calvinist TULIP as a sad joke.
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You have to understand – that Calvinism is a belief system which is in conflict with itself.
The Calvinist claims his doctrine of decrees is TRUE and is what scripture teaches.
But he lives his movement by moment life *AS-IF* his doctrine of decrees is FALSE
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Thus he claims his doctrine is what scripture teaches him.
While he simultaneously treats what scripture teaches him *AS-IF* it is FALSE
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The TULIP is one of the ways Calvinists – in their struggle with their own doctrine – seek to avoid it.
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The TULIP is strategically designed to *HIDE* things stipulated within the doctrine – which the Calvinist does not find palatable.
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The “T” within Calvinism’s TULIP for example – functions as a LIE OF OMISSION.
A lie of omission – is communication designed to mislead – by the strategy of omitting critical facts – which if not omitted would not mislead.
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The critical fact which the “T” in the TULIP is designed to hide – is the fact that per the underlying doctrine – the state of nature – including every man’s nature – at every nano-second in time – is 100% meticulously predestined by infallible decree. And at every nano-second in time – cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to be.
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The Calvinist uses the “T” in his TULIP to FALSELY attribute man’s condition – and therefore man’s eternal destiny to the state of man’s nature.
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When the TRUTH is – in Calvinism – every nano-second of man’s condition, and nature, as well as man’s eternal destiny are *FIXED* by infallible decree – and cannot possibly be other than what it was infallibly decreed to be.
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The Calvinist does not want to tell people that every impulse that comes to pass within their brains is 100% meticulously predestined – and therefore humans have NO SAY and NO CONTROL over any impulse that will come to pass within their brains – because the Calvinist knows if they tell people that TRUTH – people will reject their doctrine.
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They don’t want people to reject their doctrine.
So they don’t TELL THE TRUTH.
The TULIP is a strategy designed to HIDE what they don’t want people to see.
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Blessings!
br.d
br.d
Jeff – in this last question – you and I were just discussing how Calvinism is a belief system that is in conflict with itself.
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Just this morning Dr. Flowers released a new video on Youtube – and I think it is the Lord’s perfect timing that it coincides with this topic.
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I highly recommend you watch this video.
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It is titled: The Damaging Effects Of Theistic Determinism | Leighton Flowers | Calvinism | Soteriology 101
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Dr. Flowers starts out by saying how many emails he receives from X-Calvinists – who are coming to grips with the emotional and psychological affects it had on their minds. And they are either looking for help in how to cleans their minds of these affects – or they are wanting to thank Dr. Flowers for helping them to understand why they got lured into Calvinism in the first place – and thank him for helping them to navigate their way out of it.
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This video is a wonderful example of the degree to which Dr. Flowers cares about people.
Hello Jeffster, I’ll add just a few things (there’s lots more that could be covered) to the comments on “The Five not-points of Calvinism” (which I skimmed):
[And well said, Brdmod: “They don’t want people to reject their doctrine. So they don’t TELL THE TRUTH. The TULIP is a strategy designed to HIDE what they don’t want people to see.” This is how Calvinism spreads as easily as it does, through deception.]
1. The article says that “dead” means spiritually helpless and unable to turn to God on our own. This is reading into Scripture something that’s not there (and it affects their whole theology, dragging them into severe error from the very beginning).
“Dead” – in the Bible – means a separation, whether it’s separation of the spirit from the body (physical death) or separation of us from God (spiritual death). It’s not about annihilation or obliteration of our souls/spirits. But Calvinist turn spiritual death into “total inability,” as if our brains are as dead as a dead body and cannot do anything but lay there all dead until God wakes us up and gives us the faith to believe. But this is not what dead means. All spiritual death means, simply put, is that because of sin we are separated from God and cannot work our way to Him.
BUT… and this is critical… He has given us living brains that can think and reason, and He expects us to use our living brains to see Him in creation, to hear His calls, to see that we need Him, and to turn to Him. (But He has given us the right to decide for ourselves if we will respond to or ignore His calls.)
Acts 17:27: “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.”
Romans 1:20, “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
Isaiah 55:6: “Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near.”
Deuteronomy 4:29: “But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him, if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
Jeremiah 29:13: “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart…”
Amos 5:4, 14: “Seek me and live…” (Clearly, if they’re not “alive” until after they seek Him, then they are currently “dead,” which means that God is telling “dead” people to seek Him. And God expects “dead” people to seek Him because He knows that “dead” people CAN seek Him, because dead doesn’t mean “total inability.”)
2. The article says “Calvinism offers deep, unshakable security for fragile people.” I find that ironic because Calvinists believe that God is the kind of God who says one thing but means another, who has hidden layers which contradict the surface layer, and who has unspoken commands that contradict/oppose His spoken commands.
In Calvinism, He SAYS He wants all men to be saved while really meaning that He wants most people in hell for His glory. He SAYS Jesus died for all while really meaning that He only died for the elect, all KINDS of men. He SAYS He doesn’t want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit while really wanting them to eat the fruit. He SAYS that we choose whom we serve while He really predestined/determines whom we serve. He SAYS “seek Me and believe” when He really means “You can’t seek or believe unless and until I make you.” He SAYS “obey, don’t sin” when He really means “You can’t decide anyway because I’ve preplanned everything you’re going to do, and you can’t change it.” Etc.
How can this kind of a God offer any “deep, unshakable security for fragile people”? Personally, I think it makes everything so much more unstable, so much worse.
Calvinists do not take God at His Word. They pride themselves on holding the Bible in high regard – on having a “high view of Scripture” – but they do not take it at face-value, the way God wrote it. They believe God speaks in code and double-talk, that He contradicts Himself (and that it’s okay because “Sovereignty!” and “It’s for His glory!” and “It’s a mystery. Who are you, O man, to talk back to God anyway?”), that He says one thing but means another.
But this would make Him duplicitous and untrustworthy (in Calvinism). And if He’s a two-faced, untrustworthy God, then how could any Calvinist trust their election, that He really did elect them to be saved and gave them real faith?
A two-faced, untrustworthy God who says one thing but means another could have easily said that they were elect when they really weren’t. (Because “Sovereignty!” and “It’s for His glory!” and “It’s a mystery. Who are you, O man, to talk back to God anyway?”) And so what assurance – what “deep, unshakable security” – do Calvinists really have about their election? What support can they fall back on when their Calvinist God is two-faced and untrustworthy?
[So what does a Christian’s assurance of salvation really rest on? On the fact that our God – the God the Bible who says what He means and means what He says – is a God who can be trusted. And so we can trust that if we do what He said we need to do to be saved (believe in Jesus) then He will do what He said He would do (give us eternal life).
Calvinists have no such assurance – because Calvi-god cannot be taken at his word. If you want to attack God, a most effective way is to discredit His Word, His trustworthiness – because if you don’t have a God worth trusting, you don’t have a God worth believing in, worth relying on, worth worshipping, worth loving. Calvinism has done a great job of this!]
3. Hyper-Calvinism is just Calvinism without its makeup on.
Was that your phrase, Br.d.? “Without its makeup on”? 🙂
Hyper-Calvinists are just the most honest Calvinists, the ones who recognize and admit the true, terrible conclusions of their theology, whereas the average Calvinist will try to sugar-coat it or word it in more flowery, deceptive, palatable ways. [Skimming the article, I have to say that this is his attempt to further soften up Calvinism’s image, to change the wording to make it more palatable than it is. And easy way to obscure, deflect, deceive, and cover up what they really mean is to simply change the wording when people have caught on to what they’re really teaching and how bad it is.]
In the article, he even said “Historically, some Calvinists have moved from a true statement (Jesus died for his elect) to a false conclusion: Christians should offer Christ to others only when those others show signs of election.” He admits Jesus died only for the elect, but then he wants to soften it up by basically saying that we shouldn’t have to know who the elect are before offering them Christ.
This author tries to sound humble and godly by saying “Far be it from anyone, then, to take limited atonement as a reason to limit the precious value of Christ’s blood or the worldwide offer of that blood to any and every sinner, however non-elect he or she may appear at the moment.” But all he really means is “Yeah, Jesus only died for the elect and so only the elect can and will be saved, but we should still ‘offer’ His sacrifice to everyone because we don’t know who’s elect and who’s not.”
But I say, the real issue here is who Jesus died for (and he already admitted it’s just for the elect). Calvinists get that main point wrong from the very beginning, and so their resultant in-group fighting over “should we evangelize the non-elect or not” is pointless. It’s an inconsequential debate that doesn’t matter in the end at all because – according to them – only the elect can and will be saved because Jesus died only for the elect and God will cause only the elect to believe.
Everything else is just pointless. And it doesn’t change the fact that, no matter what, the non-elect can never be saved.
And since the elect are guaranteed to be saved regardless of what we do or don’t do, what difference does it make how a Calvinist evangelizes? Does it really have an effect on what God “predestined” and will surely bring to pass? Can Calvinists really affect His predetermined plans? They believe they can’t but then act like they can.
4. He said “Few doctrines are more humbling than those captured in TULIP. Born depraved in mind, heart, and will; chosen not for anything in me; rescued and kept despite daily offenses to my God — these will lay a person low.”
Personally, I think it’s much more humbling to know that God, the Creator of this universe, would humble Himself to the form of a man to die in our place and offer us salvation knowing that many of us will spit on His sacrifice and reject Him. To know that He paid the ultimate price out of love for us and that He gave us the choice to accept or reject Him is truly humbling to me – far much more than the idea of a God who SAYS He wants all people to be saved and who pretends He gives us all a real offer of salvation and a real choice but who predestined everything we choose and do and who will then punish us for doing what He predestined we would do.
A God who truly loves all people and who asks us to love Him back – who showers us with His love, grace, mercy, goodness, etc. in His efforts to woo us to Him, but who gives us the right to choose – is truly humbling to me, far more than a God who created some people to love/save but created most to hate and to predestine to hell for his pleasure and glory.
Just a few thoughts as I skimmed that article. Blessings to you, Jeff and Brd.
Heather
A God who truly loves all people and who asks us to love Him back
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br.d
Wonderfully said!!!
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Considering the fact that the Calvinist – per the doctrine – was more than likely created specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire for Calvin’s god’s good pleasure.
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And being created as a CHAFF believer – being divinely decided by infallible decree – to live out his daily life having a constant stream of infallibly decreed FALSE PERCEPTIONS of salvation coming to pass within his brain.
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We can understand why that would be a belief system in conflict with itself!
There but for the Grace of God go we!!!
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Blessings!
br.d, Heather and Everyone Else,
Hope all is well,
Some people have joked that the
ESV , English Standard Version of the Holy Bible should be called
The English Sproul Version after the late Reformed Theological
R.C. Sproul
Some good Articles I found online are
From
agnessinuvia.medium.com an article headlined
“Elected by Satan. Escaping the heresy of calvinism” on
Feb 8, 2020 — by Agnes Sinuvia
2. thebiblefornormalpeople.com has an article headlined :
“Scot McKnight vs. Those
“Pesky Calvinists”
3. The blog
anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com
I think some people are reluctant to label Calvinism heresy, because it’s so common and because elements of Calvinism are in much of Christianity , how do we define what is and isn’t “heresy”
So many different Interpretations and Endless Debate, it’s so confusing, perplexing and mind-boggling , I just hope that in Heaven God gives us All the Perfect True understanding and Interpretation as only he would Know. I don’t think any of us will have a Perfect True Understanding in this Life
Jeffster! You might find this interesting, relating to the ESV – Calvinistic Influence in ESV
1. In Rev 13:8 where it translates the Greek preposition apo as “before” when it clearly can only mean “from”, as the ESV itself even thus translates apo in the parallel passage Rev. 17:8. The word “from” gives the logical and biblical idea of names being added to this Book of Life when each individual personally trusts in God’s mercy for salvation. This Greek preposition apo never means “before.”
2. In Luke 13:23 where the ESV translated the present tense as future – And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” The text literally reads – “Lord, if few [are] the ones being saved?” The question is not what has been determined for the future, but what is happening in the present time.
3. In Rom 9:22-23 where the ESV translated two different Greek words with the same word – “prepared”, one “prepared for destruction”, and one “prepared before for glory.” But the first “prepared” should be translated “fitted”, more clearly indicating the sense of the verbal action of changing something that was already made. Even “prepared before” does not indicate before birth or before creation, but just some time before “glory”.
4. In Luke 2:14 where the ESV translated the one word in the genitive case – “He is pleased” – instead of the literal “of good pleasure”. This word is describing the men to whom the angels are announcing peace (if the UBS manuscript view is followed). They are men “of good pleasure” or “of benevolence”. Nothing in this genitive word suggests it is God being pleased with them or how they got this character trait “of benevolence”.
5. In 2Cor 4:3 where the ESV translated the preposition en as “to” when it clearly means either “in”, “by”, or “with”. The context indicates that Paul’s gospel was heard but is veiled now “in” those lost, or is being veiled “by” lost teachers that Satan is using to do it. There is no indication of “veiled from birth” in this passage.
6. In Ps 139:4 the ESV translated the conjunction chi as “before”. The כִּ֤י that starts the sentence is either “that” or “because” which is confirmed by the LXX use of ὅτι for it. In this verse David explains the previous verse 3, which makes “because” the better choice, and definitely not “before”.
7. In John 1:9 where it does not associate the phrase “coming into the world” with its closest antecedent “every man”, as even Calvin himself does, but with Christ, the true Light. It seems the ESV wants to negate the idea that Jesus would truly enlighten everyone who comes into the world, and wants to reject the idea of Christ drawing each of them to a bona fide opportunity of salvation at least once in their lifetime, which is what light does.
8. In John 12:32 where it adds “people” to the word “all”, to encourage a distributive meaning for this universal adjective, i.e. “all kinds of people”, instead of leaving the choice for a comprehensive meaning for this universal adjective, i.e. “everyone”, which again would aid in promoting the biblical idea, that, in agreement with His own divine desire for all to be saved (1Tim 2:4), and since He provided the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2, a verse the ESV thankfully did not alter), Jesus can and does draw everyone to an opportunity of repentance, which also was His plan (2Pet 3:9)
9. In Isaiah 48:8 It adds the word “before” to “from birth”, to suggest this verse clearly teaches God’s knowledge of the deterministic outcome of Adam’s fall into sin upon the nation of Israel – and thus everyone else also. But the Hebrew – מִבֶּטֶן – only means “from the womb”, which the ESV has as the correct translation in Is 44:2, 44:24, 46:3, 49:1, and 49:5, without adding the word “before”.
Also the ESV does not follow the traditional Greek manuscript evidence used through the centuries, but it follows the modern text UBS for choices that go against the truth of Scripture’s inerrancy. In Matt 1:7, 10 did Matthew really not remember the correct names of Judah’s kings – Asa and Amon? And in John 7:8, did Jesus really lie to his brothers telling them He was not going up “to this feast” and yet He did?
But the Eternally Sovereign Version (ESV) 😉 has messed up… using the word “decree” twice in ways that undermine reformed theology’s idea of divine decree!
God didn’t decree everything! Jeremiah 19:5 ESV — and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire… 👉which I did not command or decree👈….
Unregenerate man knows God’s decree! Romans 1:32 ESV — Though 👉they know God’s righteous decree👈 that those who practice such things deserve to die….
God must have “decreed” these helpful self-corrections in this reformed theology influenced translation! 😁
Wonderfully done!!
Brian,
Thanks for the great input on the ESV. Here is some more.
Many people dont know that the ESV is the Calvinist/Reformed translation of choice since the ESV translation of certain verses supports their position (TULIP soteriology).
On a less theological (often humorous) basis, I think the ESV uses church jargon, not understood by the “the man on the street”. We no longer really say “lest” “seek” “knew her not” “with child” “took a wife” “betrothed” “gave them utterance” “depart from iniquity” “enmity with each other” “reclined at table” “made great lamentation over him”. I could provide a list of dozens of archaic terms inserted into this “modern” translation.
Makes it sound “churchy”. Remember, Reformed folks dont worry a bit if those outside of “God’s elect” understand anything.
Just heard an ESV user quote a verse yesterday with “lest” in it. I’m older now have been in the church most of my life (and of course started with the KJV) and that word STILL struck me when I heard it. How much more so an 18-year-old average American!! The ESV purposely chose those antiquated words, but I believe that it makes the Word stranger-than-necessary to the average person.
Again, Reformed folks dont care (cuz “If God picked ’em we can make the Word as strange as we want and He will still yank ’em in”).
For fun, I will paste in a few ESV-isms below (taken from the site below):
“Grinding Together”?! Luke 17:35 ESV “There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”
Nice legs! Ps. 147:10 ESV “His delight is not in the strength of the horse, nor his pleasure in the legs of a man,”
Such clean teeth! Amos 4:6 ESV “I gave you cleanness of teeth in all your cities”
Trembling loins? Psalm 69:23 ESV Let their eyes be darkened, so that they cannot see, and make their loins tremble continually.
His list goes on and on, but it all comes from the ESV effort to “sound King James-y” and old fashioned, and literal word-for-word.
As far as the word-for-word, that sounds like what we want, right? But not really. Below is one of many examples where the ESV puts in a misleading word-for-word.
Mark 1:2 ESV: “Behold, I send my messenger before your face”
Comment: The Greek idiom pro prosōpou sou (lit. “before your face”) means “ahead of you.” I would never say, “I arrived at the restaurant before your face.” Most versions recognize the idiom and translate accurately (HCSB, NET, NIV, NAB, NLT, REB, GNT, GW). The original NASB used “before your face,” but the 1995 update (NASU) recognized the idiom and corrected it to “ahead of you.”
one more….of many.
Matt. 23:32 ESV “Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.”
Comment: By the time someone explains this to young Americans, it will sound like the NLT, REB, NJB, or TNIV “Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your ancestors!” or REB “Go on then, finish off what your fathers began!”
Imagine you are on a mission trip and teaching in English (being translated), and you say “It was raining cats and dogs.” You dont want your translator to say in his language, “…dogs and cats were falling from the sky…” You hope he knows that expression and renders it some form of “it was raining a lot.” We have had thousands of years to understand what some of the idioms of the Bible mean.
In some places the ESV will modernize an idiom, but in many many places it does not. There is no real “harm” with this if a person prefers the old-English, archaic sounding version, but it is not likely to be understood by a younger, working-class American!.
https://zondervan.typepad.com/files/improvingesv2.pdf
https://www.christianpost.com/news/esv-bible-translation-revisions-potentially-dangerous-biblical-scholar-warns.html
Very good… FOM… though I’m old fashioned and think idioms should be translated literally, though perhaps questions marks could be used to alert the reader that an idiom is being expressed in the original.
Okay for you Brian, because you are educated and exposed to literature, and because much of biblical terminology has permeated modern, daily English (“by the skin of your teeth!”). But these days most OT idioms make no sense to younger English speakers (not exposed to literature or the Bible).
We are essentially impeding them to understand the point of many passages until they up their game in poetry and rhetoric.
That argument taken to its logical end would require people to access God’s Word through Hebrew and Greek only.
Also, as you know I am these 38 years a missionary and I dont know any cross-cultural workers that would translate many OT idioms literally in an unreached people’s language. There is no way they want remote island or mountain people hearing God’s word in their non-mother tongue (say, a national or regional language) to wonder what skin on teeth is about…. and there is no way that someone who took the time to translate into THEIR language would render that verse using skin and teeth.
Once you move away from the Hebrew and Greek you confront the question of whether to translate the hundreds and hundreds of Semitic and Hellenistic figures of speech literally or comprehensively to those who have had no background knowledge of those cultures.
FOM, I understand that reasoning, and am all for paraphrases in every language. But I’m also for a literal word for word translation in every language and teaching national leaders Greek and Hebrew and the issues of translation and the original culture and language God chose for His Word. I see it as all a part of bringing those cultures out of darkness.
Hi Brian, Good list. I am particularly interested in the Calvinist changes in the ESV. One thing I would also point out about Rev. 13:8 is that in the KJV, it says “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
But in the ESV, it says “and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.”
The ESV changes the grammatical structure of the sentence to support their idea of predestination and election – saying that the names were written before the beginning… when it really should be that the Lamb was slain from the beginning, as confirmed in 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Acts 2:23.
God knew from the beginning that we would sin, that we would need a Redeemer. And so He planned from the beginning to pay for our sins with Jesus’ death on the cross. Jesus was chosen as a sacrifice for our sins from the creation of the world. That’s what Rev. 13:8 is saying.
But Calvinists flip it and make it a predestination verse. And they have shamelessly made changes like this all over the ESV to make it more Calvinist. And many people fall for it because it’s “the Bible.” Sad.
Thanks for your list. I’ll check them out. 🙂
Actually Heather I think God could be dedicated to provide salvation, if man might sin, and therefore only know before creation that Adam might or might not sin.
I also don’t see “slain from creation” as grammatically necessary or logically possible.
Rev 13:8 NKJV – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I suggest a comma be placed after the word “slain” to disassociate it from the last prepositional phrase – “from the foundation of the world.” The RSV, ESV, and NLT have erred in translating από as “before”. It only means “from”.
Actually when comparing with 17:8 it is easier to see 13:8 is not about the Lamb being slain “from”, “at”, or “before” the foundation of the world, but the main idea is the recognition that those who follow the beast have never had their names added to the Book of Life of the Lamb who was slain in AD 30. The book existed from creation, and their names, of those who follow the beast, were never added during their lifetime.
It is trying to make Rev 13:8 say too much to say it means God foresaw before creation the crucifixion as a settled event, in the words – “written in the book of life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world”. The last phrase – “from the foundation of the world” – most likely modifies “written”, like it does in the parallel passage in 17:8. And the word “slain” is just a modifier of “Lamb”, as it is in Rev 5:6 (“and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain”).
The Lamb was slain in AD 30. There is no indication in this verse of something being in God’s mind “before” creation, for the word is clearly “from” (meaning starting at and going forward). The Lamb was slain in the fullness of time, not before (Gal 4:4). And names started being written in this book of life after the foundation of the world. The book is a created thing.
Thanks Brian for your great input about the ESV. Here is a bit more.
Many people dont know that the ESV is the Calvinist/Reformed translation of choice since the ESV translation of certain verses supports their position (TULIP soteriology).
On a less theological (often humorous) basis, I think the ESV uses church jargon, not understood by the “the man on the street”. We no longer really say “lest” “seek” “knew her not” “with child” “took a wife” “betrothed” “gave them utterance” “depart from iniquity” “enmity with each other” “reclined at table” “made great lamentation over him”. I could provide a list of dozens of archaic terms inserted into this “modern” translation.
Makes it sound “churchy”. Remember, Reformed folks dont worry a bit if those outside of “God’s elect” understand anything.
Just heard an ESV user quote a verse yesterday with “lest” in it. I’m older now have been in the church most of my life (and of course started with the KJV) and that word STILL struck me when I heard it. How much more so an 18-year-old average American!! The ESV purposely chose those antiquated words, but I believe that it makes the Word stranger-than-necessary to the average person.
Again, Reformed folks dont care (cuz “If God picked ’em we can make the Word as strange as we want and He will still yank ’em in”).
For fun, I will paste in a few ESV-isms below (taken from the site below):
“Grinding Together”?! Luke 17:35 ESV “There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”
Nice legs! Ps. 147:10 ESV “His delight is not in the strength of the horse, nor his pleasure in the legs of a man,”
Such clean teeth! Amos 4:6 ESV “I gave you cleanness of teeth in all your cities”
Trembling loins? Psalm 69:23 ESV Let their eyes be darkened, so that they cannot see, and make their loins tremble continually.
His list goes on and on, but it all comes from the ESV effort to “sound King James-y” and old fashioned, and literal word-for-word.
As far as the word-for-word, that sounds like what we want, right? But not really. Below is one of many examples where the ESV puts in a misleading word-for-word.
Mark 1:2 ESV: “Behold, I send my messenger before your face”
Comment: The Greek idiom pro prosōpou sou (lit. “before your face”) means “ahead of you.” I would never say, “I arrived at the restaurant before your face.” Most versions recognize the idiom and translate accurately (HCSB, NET, NIV, NAB, NLT, REB, GNT, GW). The original NASB used “before your face,” but the 1995 update (NASU) recognized the idiom and corrected it to “ahead of you.”
one more….of many.
Matt. 23:32 ESV “Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.”
Comment: By the time someone explains this to young Americans, it will sound like the NLT, REB, NJB, or TNIV “Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your ancestors!” or REB “Go on then, finish off what your fathers began!”
Imagine you are on a mission trip and teaching in English (being translated), and you say “It was raining cats and dogs.” You dont want your translator to say in his language, “…dogs and cats were falling from the sky…” You hope he knows that expression and renders it some form of “it was raining a lot.” We have had thousands of years to understand what some of the idioms of the Bible mean.
In some places the ESV will modernize an idiom, but in many many places it does not. There is no real “harm” with this if a person prefers the old-English, archaic sounding version, but it is not likely to be understood by a younger, working-class American!.
Brian, I’m good with your understanding of Rev 13:8 too – that “a comma [should] be placed after the word “slain” to disassociate it from the last prepositional phrase… And names started being written in this book of life after the foundation of the world.” (I might add that as a note to my list of Calvinist ESV changes.)
Either way we look at it, it contradicts Calvinism, and that’s a good thing. 🙂
br.d
Hello Jeff and thank you for your kind wishes.
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On interpretations of the Bible – yes – there are bound to be issues because the are going to be people who are in decision-making positions to *BEND* scripture in the direction they want it to go.
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Dr. Daniel B. Wallace – for example has commented on the historical corruptions which the N.T. books have been subjected to prior to the printing press by scribes whose job it was to simply transcribe a new copy of a given book of the N.T.
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Dr. Wallace states
-quote
Ancient scribes who copied the handwritten texts of the New Testament frequently changed the text intentionally.
And this – over time – accounted for thousands of corruptions of the N.T. documents.
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A certain person does not like what the N.T. Author wrote in a given sentence.
So he simply chooses to alter the text to make it say what he personally wants it to say.
And that happened in thousands of instances.
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Now if those who handle the scriptures – have the tenacity to alter the scriptures for their own personal likings – then there is nothing to prevent those who handle English translations from essentially doing the same thing.
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So yes – concerning the ESV – there is a consensus among a percentage of NON-Calvinist Bible readers – that the ESV is a translation designed to *BEND* the scripture in a direction – such as to affirm Calvinist assertions.
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However – there are a couple of other *RED-FLAG* indicators in regard to the Calvinist relationship to scripture.
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Firstly – there is the *SUBJECTIVE* and *INCONSISTENT* manner in which Calvinists interpret scripture.
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It is critical to first recognize the fact that the foundational core of Calvinism is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD). And this will force the Calvinist to want to see EDD affirmed within scripture as much as possible. Consequently – when the Calvinist reads scripture – he will have an urgency to interpret it so as to affirm EDD.
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So the Calvinist develops a GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION which stipulates that scripture that EDD is the *MOST SACRED* concept within scripture. And any interpretation of scripture *DEMANDS* the affirmation of EDD.
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The problem then arises for the Calvinist – when he applies his GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION to verses within scripture and the resulting conclusion he derives from that interpretation results in conclusion which the Calvinist does not find palatable.
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When the Calvinists GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION produces a conclusion he does not find palatable – he does a complete about-face and treats his EDD which is supposed to be the *MOST SACRED* concept within scripture *AS-IF* it doesn’t exist.
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So for one verse – the Calvinist interpretation makes EDD the *MOST SACRED* concept within scripture
And for other verses – the Calvinist treats the *MOST SACRED* concept within scripture *AS-IF* it doesn’t exist.
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This pattern serves as a RED-FLAG that the Calvinist interpretation of scripture is problematic.
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On your question concerning heresy.
You also have to realize that many Calvinists wear their Calvinism as a *WIDE PHYLACTERY*
In other words – the Calvinist wears his Calvinism for the sake of boasting.
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Internally however – what many Calvinists SECRETLY want – is a God who loves them – and who sent his beloved son to die for them – and deliver them from their sins.
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That God is not the god their doctrine gives them.
The god the doctrine gives them – is a god who creates the vast majority of humans on planet earth – specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire – for his good pleasure.
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That is why many Calvinists SECRETLY hold to a God of love – rather than Calvin’s god.
So their Calvinism is a COSMETIC MASK that they wear
But SECRETLY inside – they do believe in a God who loves the creatures he creates.
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Blessings!
br.d
this is a test
Hi Jeffster, I’m the writer of anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com. It was encouraging to see you recommend my website. Thank you. Blessings to you! 🙂
Jeffster, you said “I think some people are reluctant to label Calvinism heresy, because it’s so common and because elements of Calvinism are in much of Christianity , how do we define what is and isn’t “heresy””
I think of heresy as beliefs that are contrary to what the Bible plainly teaches, and I think Calvinism fits this. Yes, Calvinism says a lot of biblical things, a lot of the same things non-Calvinist Christians say, but that’s just Calvinism’s surface layer. It’s their deeper, hidden layer that makes it heretical because it ultimately contradicts their biblical-sounding surface layer.
But while I will label the theology heresy, I do not like to label the typical Calvinist as a heretic because that’s getting to personally, too much of a personal attack. I might call the leading Calvinist teachers/theologians heretics because they are responsible for pushing this theology on people, but I have a heart for the average Christian trapped in Calvinism, the ones who I think are victims themselves. And I think we need to help get them out of the cult of Calvinism instead of lumping them in with the heretical teachers, those who do the trapping. Anyway, that’s just my thoughts on this.
Oops, that should be “that’s getting too personal”, not “to personally.” I cut and pasted something and forgot to double check it.
br.d, Heather
truthaccordingtoscripture.com has an article headlined
“SIN AND THE MISINTERPRETATION OF ROMANS 7” by James P. Shelly about how Incredibly Complex, Frustrating and Confusing Bible Interpretation is
br.d
Hi Jeff
I’m not familiar with that web-site – but I can see they are presenting R.C. Sproul and John Piper – who are two professional DOUBLE-SPEAK TAP-DANCE artists for Calvinism. Pretty much everything they say is going to be Calvinist DOUBLE-SPEAK.
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But then most curiously – they have those along-side John Lennox and Dr. William Lane Craig – who are both brilliant.
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What a strange mixture!!!
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In this article – he quotes Arthur Pink – who is also a Calvinist – and what Pink is *HIDING* is the fact that in Calvinism (Pinks belief system) a person’s brain cannot have one single impulse in it – which Calvin’s god does not *MAKE* supernaturally come to pass – granting the person absolutely *NO SAY* and *NO CHOICE* in the matter.
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Calvinists are so completely DOUBLE-MINDED about their doctrine – it is mind boggling!!
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I think Jeff – you reading any articles where Calvinists are referenced – is simply going to confuse you – because of the high degree of DOUBLE-SPEAK in which Calvinists communicate.
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You would be much better off – not subjecting yourself to that!
Hi Jeffster, You clearly do a lot of reading and research, which can be a great thing. But it can also be a hinderance. I echo what Br.d. says “I think reading any articles where Calvinists are referenced is simply going to confuse you because of the high degree of DOUBLE-SPEAK in which Calvinists communicate. You would be much better off – not subjecting yourself to that!”
My suggestion is to find one good theologian and stick with just that for awhile, along with the Bible (or just the Bible). Get to know the simple truth of the Bible deeply – without considering too much what other people say (and especially not what Calvinists say)- and then you’ll be better equipped to spot errors when you see them. It’s kinda like how people learn to identify counterfeit bills, not by looking at counterfeits but by deeply examining the real thing for a long time first. And then when they know the real thing backwards and forwards, they can easily spot the counterfeits.
If you want a recommendation for a pastor/theologian, I highly recommend and respect Dr. Tony Evans. He is my all-time favorite, and I have never had any red flags with him. I really recommend his comprehensive (but super simple to read) theology book: “Theology You Can Count On”… and his basic series which includes “Our God is Awesome,” “The Transforming Word,” “The Battle is the Lord’s,” “Totally Saved,” and “The Promise.”
His teaching and understanding of the Word is simple, practical, and relevant. And, I think, biblically-sound. His books and online sermons were such a help to me after Calvinism took over our church.
God bless you, Jeffster, and your efforts to study His Word and Truths.
br.d, Heather, Brian Wagner and Everyone Else
Did anyone hear about this book titled
“Calvinism: None Dare Call it Heresy : Spotlight on the Life and Teachings of John Calvin” by Bob Kirkland , do we believe in
“Once Saved Always Saved” is it possible for a Truly Saved Christian to Lose their Salvation ?
The word “All” in the New Testament, in the Original Greek, does it mean all types of , not every single individual
What is the True Biblical Definition of Predestination & Election, some claim Election is in Reference to
service, not to Salvation, but how can we be sure
Hello Jeff,
Hope this finds you well!
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No – I am not familiar with that book.
However – there is a new book out now on the topic of Calvinism that I would recommend to you.
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The title is “Calvin’s Desperation”
And the author is “Phil Bair”
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IMHO – this is an excellent book on Calvin – and thus on Calvinism.
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On your question of a person losing their salvation – I think I have answered this before.
As you know – in Calvinism – every individual’s eternal destiny is fixed and made infallible before the individual is created.
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Calvin’s god has 2 provisions for mankind.
He has a primary provision – and a secondary provision.
His primary provision is for the *MANY* which is to created them specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire for his good pleasure.
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His secondary provision is for the *FEW* which is to save those *FEW* individuals from his primary provision.
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So in Calvinism – since every individuals eternal destiny is infallibly fixed – then they cannot be other than what was decreed.
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However – for the NON-Calvinist – the question of a person losing their salvation is much more a personal matter.
Some NON-Calvinists adopt OSAS and some NON-Calvinists do not.
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Personally – I take all of the warnings within the N.T. seriously and at face value.
Especially the warning in Hebrews 6
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For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
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On your question about the word “ALL” not meaning ALL people who have ever been created
Defining the word “ALL” as pertaining to all “TYPES” of people – is something the Calvinist is forced to do.
Because otherwise – that verse would contradict the Calvinists doctrine.
So they are forced to defined the word “ALL” that way.
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The consequence of defining the word “ALL” that way – is the following:
1) Calvin’s god desires “ALL” men saved
2) Calvin’s god desires “ALL” men damned.
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If one is going to define the word “ALL” as all “TYPES” of people – then one has to own up to both of those statements.
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On your question about Predestination – I would ask you to go to Youtube and search for the video ” Romans 8:29-30 Predestination Adoption Foreknowledge Called Election”
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This is one of Kevin Thompson’s Bible study videos on how the words Predestination and Election are used in scripture.
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Blessings!
br.d
Some good articles I found are
1. aomin.org
“2 Peter 3:9 and the “Letterhead Argument” on
June 11, 2006 by James White
2. controversialcalvinism.blogspot.com has an article headlined
“Hermeneutics of 2Peter 3:9 — “Us all” or “you all”?” on
Oct 4, 2008
3. theologicalmeditations.blogspot.com has an article headlined
“2 Peter 3:9 and the Letterhead Argument” on April 11, 2006 , this article is somewhat different than the James White article from
aomin.org
4. evangelicalarminians.org has an article headlined
“James White on 2 Peter 3:9” on
October 17, 2013
Also did anyone read the book
“The Calvinist Conspiracy: Truth No One Else Has Had The Insight or Courage to Reveal” by Ron Craig
br.d
Hello Jeff,
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Boy you certainly are busy!!!!!
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I’m a little bit surprised at you Jeff
You seem to always take Calvinist articles at face value
And you don’t seem to be aware of the degree of DOUBLE-SPEAK that is consistent with all Calvinists.
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After this long a time – with me helping you to understand how Calvinism’s DOUBLE-SPEAK works.
I’m surprised that you don’t seem to be able to easily identify Calvinism’s DOUBLE-SPEAK easily by yourself.
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I think that is unfortunate!!
I have explained what Calvinism’s doctrine stipulates to you a significant number of times.
And showing you the large number of examples in which Calvinists consistently treat their doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE
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Calvinism’s doctrine stipulates that EVERYTHING WITHOUT EXCEPTION is *FIXED* at the foundation of the world – and every nano-second in time cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
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And yet the Calvinist goes about his life and all of his communications acting and speaking *AS-IF* events could be OTHERWISE than what Calvin’s go decreed them to infallibly be.
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Which means the Calvinist is in full abject denial of his own doctrine.
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Are you not able to recognize the consistency with which Calvinists deny their own doctrine?
Are you not able to recognize that as DOUBLE-MINDED??
Are you not able to recognize Calvinism’s language of DOUBLE-SPEAK???
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Blessings
br.d
br.d
patheos.com has an article headlined
“The Bible is Not Obvious and Clear” by Fellow Dying Inmate on
September 6, 2019
About how it’s so Difficult to Interpret the Bible